Frederick supporters plan rally outside Chesapeake jail

I suspect that someone trying to get my attention would be hollering "FIRE" loudly and continually. When awakened I also suspect I'd smell the smoke to alert me to the situation. Beating on my door is NOT breaking down the door. There is a huge difference.

Say your house is on fire and you are asleep. A passerby is kicking your door in to get you out. You're going to kill them for trying to save your life. Go ahead and feel good about that tough guys.

Truth is, none of us really know what we will do if faced with the same situation as this guy in Chesapeake until it happens. Hopefully VERY few of us will ever know and hopefully, we won't kill someone that shouldn't be killed.

Yes - I meant everyone when stating I was tired of people not accepting responsibility for their actions - this includes the CPD if they are in fact liable. Saying that, I don't think it would be fair for the city to pay millions if it was their mistake - if any compensation would need to be made, just make him whole.

To heck with a flashlight! It is MY home! The doors are locked and I'm watching tv, reading, or gone to bed...no matter! I've committed NO crime to warrant the police BUSTING in. The first thing I'm going to do is protect myself and my family. If the lights are out then it will be my intimate knowledge of my home and the laser sight on my gun leading me to the intruder. If that intruder manages to breach the boundary of my door or window with such violence as the CPD executed then I'm intending to aeriate him. You can justify the police action all you want to. If they were not continually screaming 'POLICE' while bursting through the door then they were making a dreadful mistake. At that point there was no point in trying to remain clandestine. They were dead wrong (no pun intended) in this case (and probably many others where no one died). I feel the deepest sympathy for the officer's family. I feel the deepest remorse for Ryan. Even if he manages to escape the lynching his life is forever changed. He will have to pack up and leave his home state in hopes of not being a constant target of a vengeful police interactions.

"All the informant BS and misdemeanor marijuana and all that is irrelevant."

No sir, it asks the question of why machine guns and violence are being brought to the door of a man with no criminal record.

How would all of you "identify and shoot" peope react if someone had kicked in your door while you were asleep or if your dogs were barking their fool heads off? He was threatened before with someone breaking into his house so he was hypervigilant. It's sad and tragic.. I know if someone broke into my apartment, I wouldn't lurk to the living room with a flashlight and a gun in hand, shine the light in the person's face, identify my target, then shoot. He was protecting his home. And if he had this lucrative pot growing business, I can bet the media would have pictures and video to brag about their find. Since there hasn't been, one can assume nothing was found. There was a bust in Suffolk not much later and they were all about showing the pot plants and growing equpiment.

I have $100 that says the Commonwealth moves this trial to a rural county. At that point, just the mention of marijuana will make him guilty. You all are about to see the real meaning of a 'fair trial.' You cannot complain about crime when the population understands there is no justice. It is no longer an issue of being good and fair, but a game that is to be played in a technical sense. Lady justice may be blind because her eyes have been gouged out.

tj: I'm tired of people not taking responsibility for their actions and the public allowing it.

Are you referring to the management of the Chesapeake Police Department? I agree with you.

Ryan's exact words in his interview were, "I didn't know who was coming through the door. I saw someone breaking in and I shot." He couldn't see someone breaking in if the door was still completely intact. If the police are saying he shot through the door, he must have seen through the portion that was already broken. He took responsibility for his actions. The gut wrenching interview he gave the day after the incident revealed a remorseful young man who understood that he had ended a police officer and family man's life. He apologized. All that said, it changes nothing at all about the facts. He was asleep, he was a man with NO criminal record and, thus, no expectation that police would be serving a warrant by kicking in the door. All those that know Ryan are confident that had the "knock and announce" simply been "knock 'til the guy comes to the door," he would have opened the door, seen they were police, the warrant would have been executed, Shivers would still be alive and Ryan would have a citation in hand with a court date for misdemeanor first possession of pot. They should drop the charges.

Carry a flashlight - When it's dark, you are supposed to hold the flashlight, gun, and hands close together against your body when searching in the dark. For those that will inevitably say "who has time to search for a flashlight, keep it with your firearm. Goes with the immense responsibility.

The facts - last I heard evidence in active cases are kept for the court case. So, when that comes about, we'll hear the evidence. Until then, it's just fun speculating.

It's true that when in fear of your life, you may shoot. But there are circumstances that may dictate you were not within your rights.

I'm not a liberal - I lean conservative. I'm tired of people not taking responsibility for their actions and the public allowing it.

I understand the natural tendancy to fill in blanks when information is limited. That does not however justify stating ridiculous guess work as fact. People are saying the police were shooting at him and even that the police accidentally shot Det. Shivers. It's ridiculous. Also if someone shoots blindly through a door at unknown targets, yes that is spraying and praying. I don't care how many shots it is. When someone aims a gun and pulls a trigger they are responsible for where that bullet goes. Thats the first thing you learn in any firearms safety class. "Know your target" is rule #1. If he would have waited until he could see what was going on he would have seen that his life was not in danger and this may not have happened. At the end of the day this is Ryan Fredrick's fault and no one else. All the informant BS and misdemeanor marijuana and all that is irrelevant. They had a valid search warrant and they were there legally! Ryan Fredrick did not legally use deadly force.

There is a great deal of speculation going on. But that is to be expected when the truth is withheld. Some of it inevitably gets out, and people fill in the gaps with speculation, much of it exaggerated in nature.

For example, the .223 casing listed in the search warrant results has not been explained even though it has been public knowledge for weeks. We know Fredericks had no weapon that could have fired it. We don't know if it was recently fired, which could be easily determined. We don't know whether it was found inside the house, or where the bullet went, or who was carrying a weapon that could have fired it. The police know all this and could have easily made it public with no danger to a valid case against Fredericks.

So, in the face what is known, and the knowledge that the CPD knows the rest and withholds it, people try to guess at what is being held back. It is natural for them to do so. The way to end the speculation is to trust the public with the whole truth. Whatever it is, it can be no worse than what people are guessing.

Two shots is not 'spraying and praying', sir. I would hold that to a reasonable amount of self defense from intruders breaking down your door. It may not be what another man would do under such circumstances, but I do not consider it unreasonable or excessive. Virginia laws say a man or woman has no duty to retreat in the case of burglary. Virginia statute and case law maintain that your front porch is indeed a part of your home and you do have the right to defend it.

The Chesapeake Bay PD has helped our community learn that a multi-layered defense is the best for our homes. Ryan Frederick employed such measures. A strong door, good deadbolts, strong loyal dogs and yes, finally a gun.

It's amazing the amount of speculation that is occurring. "Crawling through the door" ".223 round found so the police shot first" "No knock warrants" No one involved in the case has said that Det. Shivers was crawling through the door. There is no such thing as a "no knock warrant" and if the police were doing a cover up there would be no .223 round located. Just because a shell casing was found does not mean it was from that night and it doesn't mean the police shot first. Everyone is just guessing and most of you have no backgroud with this stuff. I think most of you would be suprised to find out how many search warrants are executed in this area and nothing is found and that is for all cities, not just Chesapeake. It's public information check it out. That's why it's a search warrant. You search to see if it's there. It's based on probable cause which is much less than beyond a reasonable doubt. And search warrants are not like on TV when it's for pounds of marijuana and kilo's of cocaine. It's often much more boring. All this being said you don't shoot a gun at people you can't see. It's not war in the jungle where you just spray and pray.

As honest men I ask you, do you deem it reasonable to have your door kicked in, when you've committed no crimes and the most lawmen will swear to before a judge are third party unsubstantiated rumors? Quite possibly from criminals who had broken into your home? Not what you're willing to forgive as a mistake, not which you might justify as acceptable in other circumstances.

This was a two month investigation where the police would have your address, phone number, dmv picture, license plates and place of employment. Have another look at the warrant. This is a person who held down a steady job since the age of twelve with no criminal record.

As an honest man I ask where was the fair handshake this man was due?

"Admitted drug user should not be allowed to possess a firearm. Fredrick is not a stone cold killer,but drug use started this chain of events."

Frederick has not run afoul of Virginia gun laws. He is allowed one possession of marijuana as a first offense before he loses his Second Amendment rights.

We are a state of laws, sir, not a state that functions solely on wild accusations and hyperbole. It has been shown to be neither safe for our liberty or the lives and safety of officers when those lose are not followed or respected.

Police shot first. Now they are trying hide evidence. Hope this goes to Supreme Court. Justice Scalia needs nose rubbed in this case.

I agree with the commenter below that the police need to learn from these practices. However, I am not optimistic that their management will do so.

I suggest that the Virginia legislature pass a law that:
1) Defines a forced entry raid as one where force is authorized to breach and enter any premise.
2) Forbids any forced entry raid into a private residence, and forbids the issuance of any warrant to do so.
3) Contains an exception for only those situations necessary to prevent the imminent loss of human life or other violent crimes such as hostage taking.
4) Make the judge and police liable for any loss of property or life those results from the raid.

These will cut down these raids to the bare minimum that can be tolerated in a free country.

The building is easy to find. The Municipal Center is located on Cedar Road, the end closest to Battlefield Boulevard. The jail is the second largest building in the complex, promptly behind City Hall. It's a newer looking building at that. And remember: expect the best, prepare for the worst. Meaning, take video cameras, audio recorders, et cetera should the municipality no longer deem the rally sufficient and try to disperse the crowd.

I am a bit dismayed that this issue is so polarizing. The goals here should be that Frederick be treated justly and that our police should learn from this tragedy so it does not happen again.

When this rally takes place, I would hope to see rank-and-file police officers, with their families, in the crowd, because it it their lives which are unnecessarily placed in danger by these kinds of raids. Even if Frederick had been guilty of all he was suspected of, it just wasn't worth Det. Shivers', or Frederick's, lives and such raids create a high risk of one or the other being killed.

The only villains, or more likely, fools, I see here are those in the police leadership who persist in keeping the truth from the public, eroding the trust the police need from the public to do their jobs. It is clear that mistakes were made, and concealing them till they are dragged out in court only makes the whole mess stink of cover-up.

The right to defend the home with a gun is exercised by a large percentage of the population. These drug raids place homeowners, especially gun owners, in an impossible position.

As a homeowner who owns a gun, if I hear my door being smashed into in the middle of the night, I face the following unpleasant choices:
1) A criminal is entering my home with unknown motivations. My family and I are at risk for murder, rape or worse. I must defend my home with a gun.
2) These are the police, entering my home on a drug raid, likely because of an informant's faulty information. I must stay away from my gun and lie on the floor and not offer any defense, or I may get shot.
3) These intruders are shouting that they are the police but they could also be criminals shouting that they are the police. What should I do?

It is unconscionable that I should have to deal with choices (2) or (3). Stop these police practices now!

A number of posters here say that Ryan Frederick should not have fired without being certain of his target.

Actually, if you place yourself in his shoes, like the jury should, he was certain of his target: it was an intruder who had just smashed in his door! Perhaps he should have asked for a business card? There is no requirement in the law that you have to understand your attacker and his motivations. All you have to be in is in fear for you life.

The door to the house is not just a piece of furniture - it is the means by which outsiders are kept OUT. When the door is broken down, intruders can enter readily and you have very little room left to hide in your own home. Moreover an intruder so bold as to smash in the front door can be presumed to be especially dangerous.

I am gun owner and I generally support the police. I feel sorry for Officer Shivers and his family. But Shivers' death was caused by his department's militaristic tactic of breaking and entering into a private home. As a gun owner, I assure you that if this happened to my home, I would assume that this was a violent criminal entering my home and defend myself and my family accordingly.

"Think about the officers' family, and all other law enforcement officers' families. You can be sure they think about it!"

Hopefully they will be thinking real hard about the next time a door needs to be kicked in for 3 joints. Perhaps they could do some real "police work" and investigate the situation instead of these unneeded strong arm tactics. One of the posters on another baord actually ok'd shooting up the bed in the other instance. What if a girl scout had been under the bed? Stupid suggestions.

As for the rally, not me buddy. I support the guy but I don't know about going into the lions den. Justice quit being fair a long time ago. All the police and prosecutors want anymore is to post good conviction rates. They don't care if they win the game on a technical. Your rights are not as important as their career to them.

Though we don't always agree, I do enjoy your opinions. We all have theories about this case, and, based on our life experiences, think certain things will and won't happen for Ryan, the CPD, the public as a result of this case.

One thing is certain: this case will forever change the way things are done in this area where search warrants, raids, and police procedure are concerned. I only hope it's for the better because the things I see out of police these days is pretty scary.

Yes, we may have already tried this case in our heads, but most of us are educated and will wait for the trial to sort out the facts - hope that's possible when the fact "collectors" are former associate of the one gunned down. It will most certainly be an interesting case...

Here's a comment completely for thought. Can we really trust the police anyway? I mean really? The guys that I grew up with that became sheriffs, police officers (both state and local), and even some that went on to Federal law enforcement were usually the ones that had something to prove or a kindof "score to settle" with society for not being the hip, "in" kind of folks in their formative years (school years).

Some of the times I've been stopped for traffic tickets and such, I've observed this sort of "I'm in control now" attitude - not all the time. It is no secret that a percentage of police officers join the police force to get some control back. Did this happen in this case? Who knows? It has, however, been pointed out that this was a bit of a cowboy type of operation and that Det. Shivers was one of the first to "sign on" for this sort of thing.

Finally, not all cops are saints and the sacred protectors of society. Police officers have been convicted of drug dealing, DUI, domestic violence, use of excessive force, firearms violations, and more. They are not always there to "serve and protect". Maybe Frederick knew that. Again, it's just a thought............

Pilot readers (or at least the ones that post here) have this case all figured out.

Why bother with such trivial things as investigations, evidence, trials?

jmo

Admitted drug user should not be allowed to possess a firearm. Fredrick is not a stone cold killer,but drug use started this chain of events. I know there are plenty of people who smoke marijuana and lead a normal life. If the news reports are 1/2 correct it made Fredrick seem depressed and behind on his bills. Based upon his life style he wasn't a "King Pin". Maybe he grew a small amount of plants for personal use and sold a few bags now and then. He probably pissed-off one of his "bong buddies" who turn him over the the police. A warrant was issued and reviewed based upon the information given and served during a reasonable time frame. Fredrick was defending his home and Shivers was enforcing the law. It still started with drug use. People say drugs don't kill. And yes I know so does tobacco, alcohol, french fries, etc. Stale mate event.

The target was an intruder that had knocked out the bottom of the door to his home even the large barking dogs did not deter the intruder. It's pretty safe to say that Frederick was well aware that a family member would not kick in the door. It's pretty safe to say that Frederick lived alone, so no one should have been entering his home without his invitation. It's pretty safe to say that the informer needs to charged with breaking into Fredericks garage. It's pretty safe to say the informant, the judge that issued the warrant, the CPD chief, and Det Shivers supervisor should all face an investigation and possible charges and dismissal for improper procedure and conduct resulting in the lost of a fine detective. Investigators need to find out where the .233 shell came from. It's pretty safe to say that Frederick should be out on bond. I feel for the officers family. I fear for Frederick. Due to bad and improper police work, he will most likely loose his home and everything else he has worked his whole life for. Even WHEN he is proven innocent in a court, he will be in debt so far that he'll likely never recover. Hopefully he'll sue CPD and win a huge settlement. I'd like to be on t

It's a crime that Ryan is still locked up. This poor kid and being terrorized for protecting himself. Anyone armed and in their right mind would have responded exactly the same way he did. Anyone who wouldn't, well I'm sure armed robbers would love to have your name and address...

The real reason local prosecutors handed over this case is because it is full of holes, & they would rather let an outside source expose the outrageous tactics used in this search. Frederick was protecting his property, and there's a decent chance a jury will acquit him. Local prosecutors don't want that hanging over their head. Besides, the commonwealth attorney has to run for reelection. I understand police officers wanting to protect their own, -- they are a family. However with a little reasoning, they would see their decisionmakers made a mistake, and that with some forethought tragedy would have been avoided. The big question here is that "where in the hell was this kid going to hide a growing operation from a search party"? A simple knock at the door would have done the trick. A similar mistake could result in another death. Gee, another reason for the saying,"drugs kill" It certainly did on this occasion. My heart weeps for both victims and their families.

Virginia does not have Castle Doctrine on the books, but statute and case law say Ryan Frederick had no duty to retreat. This is specific to the cases of burglary and arson. Men smashing down your door, undeterred by large barking dogs, in my mind, constitutes at least the threat of burglary. More so... at least I assume that of reasonable people. The law does. You are allowed to use deadly force, even shooting through a door, to deny said threat entry.

Virginia law allows for one misdemeanor possession charge of marijuana, said charge and verdict shall have no bearing upon his Right to Bear Arms. He has every right to have a gun in his home. Every right to own a gun and every right to fire his gun in self defense.

And I'm one of those liberals :P