Norfolk council rethinks no-smoking ordinance

The "Moral Police" are at it again. Regardless if you are a Smoker or a Non-Smoker, the attempts at deminishing your personal freedoms simply because the "I know better than you" fanatics think they need to be your personal watchdogs should give us all reason to pause. This is America & this debate is about freedom -Period!. #1 - There are few people today who don't know that smoking, both personal & second hand, are harmful to one's health. #2 - We all have choices whether or not to frequent any establishment of our choosing to dine, drink or socialize as well as where we wish to be employed. #3 - There are ample eateries in Hampton Roads and throughout the USA that have, as a choice of the owners of these businesses, a "No Smoking" policy. The owners of those bars and resturaunts have a right to make this policy and reap the rewards or suffer the consequences of that choice. My question is simple. If Non-Smoking bars were going to bring the "Moral Police" in the door to spend their money, don't you think there would already exist? If you force any of us to surrender any one freedom, don't be shocked when your freedom to choose is extinguished by someone who "knows better that you

Smoking is abhorrent and causes cancer and myriad other illnesses. I don't see any reason for there to be more said; however, I will try to answer your questions: Yes, aalto, I believe smoking ANYWHERE that would subject innocent people to breathe second hand smoke should be illegal. The tobacco industry should be banned worldwide. Of course all tobaccco products should be illegal. Johnt, I will never get you to see my perspective, so can only say that non-smokers are not causing smokers any harm. Smokers cannot say the same. This product will eventually be banned when enough non-smokers get more vocal and radical and States and the Feds work out how to operate without the billions in blood money generated by killing its own citizens.

I smoke and I see restaurants that do not allow smoking all over the place! Isn't ironic that non-smokers (Kate) can't seem to find these places? Oh, can it be because they enjoy whining (kate) about the places that do allow it so much that they don’t have the time to look??

Somebody please tell my why this is an issue?? This is a free country (at least for now). Why can't you (kate) eat or work somewhere where smoking isn't allowed? Why do you feel (kate) it necessary to whine about it instead of actually going to a non-smoking establishment??

When you give me your answer (kate) please do not cut and paste some lame excuse like "I can't find one or I shouldn't have to". Give me a concrete reason why you cannot go to a non-smoking establishment! If you’re out in the open (that means no walls or roof, kate) walk away if somebody is smoking near you! This isn’t rocket science (kate).

There are literally hundreds of non-smoking restaurants in the area. When I go to a restaurant I don't smoke, but when I go to a bar I do. Yes, I do know bars & restaurants are treated the same in our area, and maybe that's the problem. No arguement that the public should be informed that the restaurant/bar is a smoking or non-smoking establishment because I feel it should be about options and choices, but my question still hasn't been answered. How much government control do you really want? Where does it end? What in your own personal behavior are you willing to give up because of government contol? Banning smoking is just a stepping stone for more control, and the day will come when something you enjoy will be up for debate.

It won't make any difference in your business, in fact, you might get more. We went through this same stuff in Oklahoma, & smoking is banned in most public buildings, now, I believe, not just restaurants. The restaurants, coffee shops, etc. acted like it was the kiss of death, but I belive they have been surprised. You can have a smoking section here, but it has to be enclosed, & separately ventilated. It is wonderful! Hang in there, it will be a good thing, & in a few months, you will be vindicated. Sometimes I'm surprised how us "backward" Okies are really way ahead of a lot of you'all, ha ha.

A restaurant is a private business. If a business wants me there, they will make sure their environment is has nice clean air for me to breath. If they have a smoking section, then they should make sure that the smoke is not spilling into the rest of the establishment. I am very sensitive to smoke and don't like to be around it. There are very few places now days that do not have good enough ventilation to prevent smoke from coming into the non-smoking area. If a restaurant owner were smart, they'd make the smoking section as small as possible. Notice how fast it is to get a table in the smoking section vice the non-smoking section. The business owners are far better at running their businesses than anyone of the flunkies on city council will ever be.

Tobacco companies gave $96 million to state-level candidates, committees
and ballot measures in the '05 and '06 election cycles.

Altria, the parent company of Philip Morris (PM), did not shut its
wallet to VA lawmakers, giving to 119 of 140 (about 81%) 2007 VA
General Assembly members.

In 2007, seven bills addressing smoking in public were introduced in VA, all of which failed to become law. PM has been a formidable presence in the state legislature and is known for its ability to kill legislation before it can even face a vote.

PM opposed the bills, advocating instead to let business owners decide
how best to accommodate their customers and let the public "choose
whether or not to frequent places where smoking is permitted." (Gee, sound familiar?)

An American Heart Association director stated, "Big tobacco has deep
pockets and they definitely reached into them for this."

(Wow - I find it amazing how some comments on this site sound exactly like tobacco lobbyists!)

For one, restaurants for the most part are public places, not private clubs—just ask Kokoamos Island Bar & Grill. That point aside, I say it’s only right for smoky restaurants and bars to actively inform the public and not make potential customers have to go inside and gag to find out it’s a smoking place. And what about workers and the issue of employee heath? Due to financial hardships and lack of transportation, some can’t easily pick and choice their employment type and location as others. So does their hardship mean they have to literally suck it up?
Time and logic are on the side of those who want smoke free public places.

You logic is flawed. Plutonium 238 is a controlled substance and it is illegal to have because it is volatile. Last time I checked cigarettes are only volatile when combined with gasoline, besides smoking is a long term death. Plutonium is a short term and neighborhood killer. It isn’t that government doesn’t have it place; in this instance government’s place isn’t needed and in the long run will create more problems than it will help. And leave the burgers alone!

The question wan't anti-government control. It was how much government control do you want? Big difference between several pounds of Plutonium 238 in your backyard and a business owner allowing smoking in his bar or restaurant where people have the option or choice to enter or not.

So going with the anti-government control line of logic here, I assume if I own my own property, say somewhere in Norfolk, and I choice to keep several pounds of Plutonium 238 in the open in my back yard it's ok. Because we don't want that pesky government telling me what to do--if folks don't like their hair and teeth falling out, well they can just leave the neighborhood. Anyway, why don't they go after those burger eaters?

I like your logic.

So what your saying katet is that smoking should also be banned out in the open air? What kind of government do you want us to live under?

The City council should never have tried to govern this legal activity. It is a violation of FREEDOM OF CHOICE - What this Country Was Founded On!! It is and should be the OWNERS choice whether or not to be completely smoke free. THEY are paying the business licenses, taxes, employees salaries and fees to The Commonwealth of VA and providing all these people with jobs NOT THE GOVERNMENT. It is what is best for their business and if you as a patron don't like it you have the choice to go elsewhere don't you? There was a resturant in Ocean View that WAS non smoking and guess what - it wasn't making it and now has smoking after 9:00 - Granby North. There is something for everyone just find yours and leave ours (in what still is) AMERICA alone. P.S. I don't smoke.

How much Government control do you want? What in your own personal behavior are you willing to give up in the name of Government control? Cell phones? Trans fat? Going on a diet because you are fat? Just where in your mind does Government control end?

Coming out of a concert at Ferguson Center (Christopher Newport University) last evening, one smoker who obviously was "dying" for his cigarette fix, lit up immediately after walking out of the door. The fact that there were hundreds of folks filing out at the same time didn't bother this selfish pig one bit. He fouled the air for all of us...and I hate him for it!

It may be that the Norfolk City Council recognized that we live in the United States of America and not United Socialist States of America. Since America’s economy is rooted in capitalism it should be left up to business owners whether they want to base their profits on a non-smoking or smoking investment. The majority of the time bar owner, the band etc… make the majority of their money from smokers. So it doesn’t make good business sense to eliminate smoking. In fact, the ripple effect would be, lose of income in the form of tax revenue, business profits and jobs. There may be a business opportunity for an enterprising non-smoker who is willing to take a chance on their own non-smoking establishment. Isn’t America GREAT!

Everything is same-o same o...Norfolk Council finally has a chance to show some resemblance of a vertebrae, but no, they will remain a snail, small meaningless and spineless. I bet if another city passed the ban and implemented it, Norfolk would follow, but then again, there is no locality with the spine to do it. Now we can wait another month or so until another city council acts stupidly.

That would either be not paying attention, lazy or just not caring. But it sure doesn't mean only a "smoker" is any of those. That is why the streets are littered with all kinds of debris, not just butts. Same can go for carts at the grocery store. People do not take the extra 5 steps to put the cart in the return. Why is that?
Eating out is not something we do on a daily basis. We have our favorites if/when we do. If there was something in one that we did not like, we would find another. And looking at the health inspection reports, we can weed out a few very quickly, forget the smoking, there are a lot more other disgusting issues that poses a health threat I 'am more worried about. If someone eats out so much and is irritated so bad by second hand smoke, find another spot. There is plenty out there. If it's just for an occasional once a week eating out. Find a non smoking one. It's actually quite simple. Same principle goes for other issues you might find in a restaurant that would make you go elsewhere.

That smokers don't mind their odor and disease invading every other person's nostrils and lungs, but I keep seeing all these smokers dumping butts out of their windows. What does the smelly butt make your car smell bad or is that you are too completely lazy to dispose of it in a trash receptacle? I think you might call them ashtrays and last time I looked, almost every car has one.

True story - I was at a 7-11 last week and saw a smoker get out of his car, take the last pull of his deathstick, walk by a perfectly good trash can (with the ashtray on top), and toss his butt into the parking lot and walk in the store. Can one of you smokers explain any of this?

Quoting Mayor Fraim, "My preference is to ban smoking completely." Well mayor, no one voted you in office to exercise your "preference" you are there to do as the people want you to do. In case you haven't noticed, the people decide if and when they want to go to a restaurant or other establishment that allows smoking. My preference just happens to be not to go. If a wise business person sees there is a market for non-smoking restaurants or bars, then I'm sure they'll take that opportunity. If you think it's such a good idea, why don't YOU open one? Oh! you'd rather control what real business people do. Sure indication of those that can DO and those that can't try to dictate.

So here’s what we have right now.

1) Its the right of business owners to allow smoking
2) Second hand Smoke is a health hazard

So the only right thing to do is to warn unwitting patrons that a “smoking” establishment is hazardous to their health. So there should posted a prominent warning at the businesses main entrance “…that the second hand smoke in this business can potentially kill you.” I’d have this written right under the big skull and crossbones.

I’d also protest employee and require business to have them sign a statement acknowledging the danger they’re in by working in the smoke filled places.

All this has nothing to do with business owners’ rights and has all to do with protecting patrons and employees from a horrible health ordeal

To quote,"Councilman Barclay C. Winn, who reached out to Virginia Beach officials and crafted a regional approach, said he is upset with the General Assembly for ignoring the wishes of the five cities."An overwhelming majority of people in this region want the smoking ban," he said, "and we just got smacked." What pole or survey is he basing his statement on? I don't smoke and I prefer not to be around it. That's why if a resturant or anyplace else does not take proper actions to keep smoke out of the non-smoking areas, I won't go there. Imagine that Councilman Winn! Someone actually using their freedom of choice! I don't want people like Winn to dictate to us what they think is good for us. Fact is (quoting a recent Dutch study), smokers and obese people actually cost us less in health cost because they have shorter life expectancies and do not go through the expensive elder care cost associated with more fit people that live longer. I think resturant owners are smart enough to choose how to run their bussiness. Have you ever seen city council run anything right?

Want a suggestion nadezhda? Go buy yourslef a bar in or near Ocean View. Put a sign in the window that states it is a smoke free environment. Sign contracts for the bands that you want to hear. Advertise the band will be there, and there will be no smoking allowed. Sit back and reap the benefits you desire! You will be exercising your freedom to create a smoke free environment, just as the owners of other establishments exercise their righ to maintain their establishment as smoking. No government mandates. No government controls. Just the American way!

So who do we bill for our second-hand smoke cancer treatment?

If you spend enough time in close enough proximity to smokers that the second hand smoke causes you to get cancer, then it's your own fault. Bill your own insurance company. No one forced you to be there. The last time I checked, we all still have the right to choose where we will work and will or won't go for our meals and entertainment. Speaking of which, remember that heart disease is still the number one killer, not cancer, and I don't see the majority complaining we need to shut down fast food because it's killing us all!! Remember that the next time you're shoving that cholesterol and fat laden burger down your gullet.

And this is from an ex-smoker who now hates the sight of cigarette butts and the smell that smoking produces. I kicked the habit, but let me tell you, there's not a day that goes by where I don't want to fire one up. I just don't, because I know better. You should know better as well.

How about if you just make Oceanview a smoking area?

(;

Dog-Bones you can't smell musk oil you have no nose left.
Dog bones you can't smell when your the one who smells.

Just how much Government control do you really want? What are you willing to give up in your personal behavior in the name of Government conrol? Why do you think you are more important than anyone else?

I've been looking forward to the ban so that I could go out to hear bands in some of the local smoke-holes. I guess that isn't going to happen. How about music in smoke-free places near Ocean View? Any suggestions?

People should have choices and opetions on whatever bar or restaurant they visit. If you don't like the smoky atmosphere of a bar then go to one that doesn't allow smoking. Some of you want to make this all about YOU and tell stories of stinky smoke, which is close to the sadiest story I've ever heard. DUH! You poor pathetic thing! Signs on the door stating a smoking or non smoking establishment is all that is needed. Nothing could be more simple!

Glad to see that state legislature has the constitution in mind when it aborted the attempt to control what happens in a privately owned establishment. If I don't care for the music being played in a particular bar, I don't go in that bar. If I don't like the food served, I find another resturant. You don't like the smoking, go somewhere else. Norfolk council should stick to running the city instead of trying to legislate peoples habits in private business.