Discussion: State of the Gun

Many of you are just going on and on without reseaching what your saying, Look up crime statistics since CCP/CHP/CWP have been allowed in each state. Every one of them will show you that crime has gone down. It will also so you that a very small amount if any in some cases are the ones commiting the crimes with weapons.

You don't want a discussion what you want is for everyone to agree with you. In no way are you going to change my mind nor do I expect to change yours. Sitting here bantering back and forth makes no common sense whatsoever, and it's a waste of time. None of you will have the final say on what direction gun contol bills will go in the future, and I don't need to justify anything to you or anyone else. My position on gun control will be stated with current elected officials and those running in up-coming election. You do as you please. BTW belittling others IS your forte. With some of you that's all you want to do. If I'm being attacked, you bet I will attack back, but I have a limit on such behavior then the discussion is over. Talk among yourselves!
I don't know why my "In Conclusion" comment was pulled. There was certainly nothing wrong with any part of it. What I would like to know is what warrrants a comment to be pulled. Maybe some day the VA Pilot will answer that question.

How many people here have looked up kennesaw Georgia?

Here it is in a nutshell. One of the LOWESTviolent crime rates, and murder rates in the nation!!!

How did it happen one might ask?

How about a law that all head of households are required to carry a gun, unless religiously against it, mental problems, or perhaps totally against guns.. Who wants to hold up a 7/11 when there are potentially half a dozen armed people waiting for you to turn your back..

Maybe the wild west wasnt so bad, at least people were polite! A lot more so that what I have been reading in these posts!

BTW, do I have a right to speak? Absolutely, I spent 10 years of my life in Submarine forces, willing to do what was necessary to protect these United States and the Constitution. That Constitution, and it's bill of rights, allows me to own and carry a GUN.

DonM, read the quotes I posted about 12 posts down, georges61555, like most of the other anti-gun folks, has tried more insults to make his point than facts.

I like your plan! I have no problem with a law like that.

As far as the "Depression can hit a man hard between 35 and.......", I would worry more about women going through menopause!!! :D

I think georges61555 has concluded his inputs, but I sure hope he/she is still reading them.

It was part of a TV program dealing with mental illness in America. As you know mental illness has been the topic of many aricles as well as discussions especially with the new bills being passed regarding it and the VA Tech shooting. Depression doesn't wait until 35 to 44 for sure, but often that is the time when many men first encounter it. Those are very vulnerable ages for many men that can lead to ongoing bouts of depression and thoughts of suicide also dramatically increase. Doing a google search you can find additional info and a breakdown by various age groups.
Since my last post "In Conclusion" was removed from the discussion, as stated, I will not continue the debate in this foram on gun contol. But will continue my concern about the lack of gun control and the danger's I see that come with it in other ways.

If I am reading this correctly, GeorgeS is not against gun ownership and carrying concealed. He is against openly carrying a firearm due to the stigma and phobias attached to firearms. Out of sight, out of mind type of thing?

All this would be alleviated if the state changes the law to read "It is unlawful to possess a firearm in an establishment whose primary purpose is to serve alcohol. In cases where a restaurant also has a bar, then it would be unlawful to possess a firearm in the bar area." This would eliminate the issue with only being allowed in the Olive Garden if you carry your gun in the open. You could further amend the law to state that it is unlawful to carry a firearm while consuming alcohol or with a BAC of .02 or higher. This eliminates the controversy over guns and alcohol.

George, not trying to be mean or anything, but just wondering if the depression theory is based on any facts? If so let me know. I'm a few years older than the age parameters given for men experiencing depression, but, still have had it before, like when I read your posts. Just kidding there. Hanging my head in shame, I request the source of information for your theory.

Every handgun I own is within reach of my kids, they know where they are and they are all loaded, fully loaded. Why have my kids never even thought about messing with my guns? Because my wife and myself are highly involved in our kids lives. We always ask if the have homework,need help with anything, we know where they are at all times, take them to and from ball practice, attend games, school functions....You ask what this has to do with the topic of guns? I own a pile of guns, all legal. My wife and I are good, involved parents who explain right from wrong. My kids know my guns are there for protection if the situation were to ever arise. We teach high morals and hold our kids accountable for their actions. Guns are not a problem for us.

For the very simple reason that you are not allowed to carry it concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol. I would prefer not to carry it open but we are forced to if we have it on our person because that’s what the law states. Once again, we are trying to obey the law... hence law abiding citizens... translated as not the ones you need to be worried about.

It has been my experience that people who choose to carry much prefer not letting others know they have it if for no other reason than to avoid the controversy and possible naive interpretation of others.

"Depression can hit a man hard between 35 and......."

So now you are a leading sociologist and/or psychologist?

Federal database. No thank you. What would be registered? All firearms? Handguns only? Shotguns and rifles as well? Keeping federal lists of gun owners would be a travesty for several reasons.

Why do you not respond to my question or anyones elses regarding the ridiculously low rate of handgun offenses committed by those who legally carry openly or concealed?

“The 2nd amendment interpretation seems to have taken on an individual interpretation.” The 2nd Amendment is in the Bill of Rights, which spells out the rights citizens if the United States enjoy. The only reason that many supporters of the Constitution agreed to do so was because of the inclusion of the Bill of Rights, designed specifically to enumerate those inalienable rights the government could not take away. What is the purpose of the database you propose? Why should the government maintain a list of people who have the audacity to exercise their rights? Look at the word you use – permit. As in, the government has permitted you the right to own a firearm. You don’t get your rights from the government and the Constitution prevents the government from denying them to you. More harm has been caused and more lives lost because of words and religion than guns, but I don't see you advocating getting permit from the government or registration for either of those.

georges61555, I have answered all of your questions, but sadly, several of my post seem to drop off the forum or take several hours to be OK'd by the staff.

There is no way the federal government should have a database of who said what, who goes to what church or who owns a firearm. The founding father knew history and knew what happens when a government takes away these rights. What happens in other countries, such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq if you do not follow the state religion? What happens in these countries if you say negative things about the leaders?

Kaine did what he thought was right and what is perfectly legal to do, but he did go against the will of the majority so there is no way this is over.

The 2nd amendment interpretation seems to have taken on an individual interpretation. Why did I ask pappy62, "so you don't have an answer"? Because 3 seperate time he stated, "so you don't have a plan", and it was his turn to answer my question instead of trying to put me on the spot. Well, I now have a suggestion, plan if you will. EVERY gun purchased should require a permit and that permit should be entered into a fegeral government database. Afterall, since guns aren't illegal, then a permit should be no problem to the person purchasing one. I don't know if ALL permits have to be renewed, but if they don't they absolutely should be. Life changes alone could alter that person's right to purchase a gun. Depression alone CAN hit hard the man between 35 and 44 years old although most men don't want to admit it. Nothing I've said above takes away anyone's right to own a gun, but I will continue to say the 2nd amendment should not overlook common sense. You don't have to agree with me, but I'm entitled to my interpretation.

Comparing driving and carrying firearms is a fallacious comparison typically trotted out by antigun folk. The problem is that the right to drive isn’t enshrined in the Constitution but the right to bear arms is. “What is the need to openly wear a gun to a restaurant?” Since when does any citizen have to justify exercising a Constitutional right? Should people have to explain why they want to go to church? Come up with a good reason why their home shouldn’t be searched without a warrant? Explain why, oh, I don’t know, they should be allowed to participate in an online discussion? You want licensing and a national database. Let me ask you this: How would you feel about having to register to exercise your right to free speech? Get a permit from the federal government to attend your church? Obtain a license before being awarded a speedy and public trial? Too many people want the 1st Amendment to be absolute but want to impose restrictions on the 2nd.

You constantly ask, “What right of yours am I trying to take away?” It appears from your postings that you are OK with people owning firearms so long as they are not actually taken out of the house. You say, “I don't deny anyone's right to own a gun. But owning a gun and seeing them being worn around town…is a scary thought.” You then ask, “Does the 2nd Amendment, which gives you the right to bear arms also give you the right to wear that gun on your hip where ever you want to?” Yes it does. The 2nd Amendment says “…the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” The Founding Fathers specifically mentioned ownership (“keep”) and carry (“bear”). It says “shall not be infringed,” not “unless it makes someone uncomfortable in which case the People must surrender the right to bear.” You seem not to want to allow people to carry concealed in a restaurant. The only way people can carry is openly, which you call “in your face.” Sitting quietly at dinner with a gun on one’s hip isn’t in your face. Waving it around or announcing, “Look everyone! I have a gun!" would be.

georges61555 said, "The federal government has access to our drivers license frankly, I don't see any problem with that same access to gun permits."

You would have to prove that to me. I believe the states hold that information and pass it among themselves. The feds may get an individuals record for a reason, but not everyones. I may be wrong, but like I said, you would have to show me some proof.

If I commit a felony, then the feds should be able to gather any information they need to convict me.

Now, you answer my question: If I am a law bidding citizen, trained by the U.S. Army, why should I not be allowed to carry?

Does being a law bidding citizen give you the right to drive? Yes, if you pass the simplest of test. So, I would be alright with having to have a permit to carry a firearm out in public. My biggest issue with the permits is, the federal government should never have a database on who own what or who applied for what permit.

What rignt am "I" trying to take away from YOU?

The federal government has access to our drivers license frankly, I don't see any problem with that same access to gun permits.
As a matter of fact, I think it should be mandatory. As previously stated, I don't live in fear, but I also am aware of my surroundings, and don't stick my head in the sand either.

Your question "What is the need to wear a gun openly to dinner" sums up the entire issue many people have with your posts.

You imply someone does not have a need to carry a gun, concealed or not, into any establishment.

Simply put, no one has to justify to you, a need to carry a firearm. As long as they are a law-abiding citizen, they can do whatever they want for whatever reason they want.

Your morality, ethics, value system, et cetera has absolutely no bearing on mine. And vice versa. Living in Norfolk I see things everyday that go against my beliefs. If someone is not breaking the law, should they stop because I don't agree with them? Absolutely not.

With all the violence that happens in Tidewater everyday, you never hear about it coming from a CWP holder? Why is that?

You want to make changes to make this society better. Focus your efforts on those responsible for getting these thugs off the street. Support those who want stiffer sentencing for criminals and the enforcement of laws already on the books. Not taking my firearm.

georges61555 said, "Let me ask you a question. What is the need to openly wear a gun to a restaurant?"

I was wearing it for some other reason, such as going to the range, and got hungry.

I have read about people going into restaurants just to shoot up unarmed people and I do not want to be a victim.

If I am a law bidding citizen, trained by the U.S. Army, why should I not be allowed to carry? I do agree that if you are going to drink, leave the car keys and the firearms at home.

From what I have deciphered from your posts, I have reached the conclusion that you are in support of the first amendment, & against the second. Perhaps you would like to skip every other amendment through all 27, in favor of the odd numbered, and against the even? 1 free speech 2 right to bear arms 3 soldiers quartered in private homes during peacetime 4 Unreasonable search & seizure. etc, etc. They haven't quartered soldiers in peoples homes for a long time in the United States. And you would be in favor of unreasonable search & seizure, if my hypothesis is correct? lol

georges61555 said, "Does the 2nd Amendment, which gives you the right to bear arms also give you the right to wear that gun on your hip where ever you want to? I'm not talking about a concealed weapon permit, I'm talking about on your hip."

Does being a law bidding citizen give you the right to drive? Yes, if you pass the simplest of test. So, I would be alright with having to have a permit to carry a firearm out in public. My biggest issue with the permits is, the federal government should never have a database on who own what or who applied for what permit. I believe the 2nd Amendment meant that we, the law bidding citizens of America should always be allowed to protect ourselves from the government as well as protect ourselves from criminals.

I carry my firearm back and forth to the range, nothing more. I do not keep a loaded firearm in the house. I may be naive but I just do not live in fear. If anything changes, like Hitler takes over America, or my neighborhood goes to the dogs, I will change my ways. The 2nd Amendment gave me that right and no one is going to take it away, much like I would let no one take away anyone's right to free speech.

Let me ask you a question. What is the need to openly wear a gun to a restaurant?

You didn't answer my question. What right of your's am I trying to take away.

So, you don't have a plan? You fear firearms so no one should carry them in public except for criminals who conceal them?

Really, I cannot figure out what you and the others want. You have spent more time trying to belittle those who do not believe the way you do, but you have no plan.

My suggestion was corrected by you when I stated gun permits should be renewed and you stated they already are. Do I have the answer? NO! I don't fear firearms, I fear SOME of the people who have them, and how in your face they want to get with them. The 2nd Amendment has been debated for decades, but let me ask you a question. Does the 2nd Amendment, which gives you the right to bear arms also give you the right to wear that gun on your hip where ever you want to? I'm not talking about a concealed weapon permit, I'm talking about on your hip.

I do not quite understand the logic in your fear of someone wearing a gun in a restaurant. Is it based on personal, real and tangible experience, or a phobia based on a stigma heavily influenced by Hollywood? You do know you stand a better chance of being harmed by another motorist on our wonderful streets of Hampton Roads.

If seeing a person wearing a gun in a restaurant bothers you, then perhaps you should get behind legislation that allows a person to conceal it when they are in a restaurant. I would never wear mine out in the open, but that's my personal choice. I prefer people not knowing I am armed.

So, you don't have a plan? You fear firearms so no one should carry them in public except for criminals who conceal them?

Really, I cannot figure out what you and the others want. You have spent more time trying to belittle those who do not believe the way you do, but you have no plan.

What right of yours am I trying to take away?

georges61555, you surprise me with every post.

georges61555 states, "I will continue my right to freedom of speech weather you like it or not."

Wow! You will continue YOUR rights while trying to extinguish MY rights!!! How can you not see what you are saying? It was so plain I will say it again! You will continue YOUR rights while trying to extinguish MY rights!!! How can you not see what you are saying?

I served in the U.S. Army to protect our rights and I will defend your right to your opinion no matter how 'in your face' wrong it is and I will equally defend my right to bear arms and free speech.

I want you to take a good long long at this: You are defend your Constitution rights while trying to take mine away. I, on the other hand, am not trying to take away your rights in anyway, just trying to protect mine.

Now, do you have some sort of plan or not?

If you think I'm ranting you haven't read many post on this subject. Excuse my stupidity but I did not know gun permits had to be renewed. If yuu find me insulting, then who's problem is that? I will continue my right to freedom of speech weather you like it or not. Yes I do have fears, and reading some of the gun advocates and the rights they want, THEY scare the hell out of me. I especially like the group of people who go out to eat once a month wearing their guns, if you didn't read that article you should have, those people want to stick their RIGHT in your face, and again yes, they also scare me. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't make me worng and you right.

georges61555 stated, "One suggestion just came to mind, drivers license have to be renewed, perhaps gun permits should also be renewed."

That is fine, perhaps you could go into more detail. For a CC permit in Virginia, it must be renewed every five years. I do not retake my driving test that often. What is your complete plan? So far all you have done is try to insult people for following the Constitution of the United States.