Feds say they'll keep closing gap in funding for light rail

Let's see first it was Harbor Park, then it was Macarthur Center...and now it's light rail. I don't think this pervasive skepticism is helping Hampton Roads continue to grow and catch up with the rest of urban America. It's so rampid here, it's almost an expression of low self-esteem. Instead of complaining about something that has yet to be built, mind you, tell us your solutions. Naysayers are one of the very reasons why Norfolk and the rest of the area are so behind. They'll just have to be dragged into the 21st century kicking and screaming.
No one is saying that light-rail is the ultimate solution to traffic problems, but remember, this Norfolk line is STARTER line, which is the foundation of an eventual mass transit system. Being content with an improved bus system is not going to give us new options for getting around, because they are subject to traffic jams like any other vehicle. However rail transit can bypass traffic, of course. So in a sense there's no comparison.

I just hope there are plans to eventually extend the line to the Oceanfront. One day someone will arrive in Norfolk on a cruise ship, hop on the the train to the oceanfront, spend some time at the beach, then return to Norfolk and do some shopping. After spending some time and money in Hampton Roads they will return to the Cruise ship and head off to the next port. Maybe we will actually become a destination people will want to visit.
Otherwise, they will hop on the train and head to Newtown Road and see the traffic mess at 64 and 264 - woohoo!

Since the bus service is operated in a "horrible" manner; the logic here is to give the same management team the responsibility for construction and operation of a grossly overpriced ($31M/lane mile, around 8X cost of a roadway lane mile). I see now. Makes complete sense. Well, maybe since running a bus service is so difficult they will do better managing a little 7.4 mile line to no where. They've started out well by not obtaining easements and right of ways leading to an embarrassing and costly battle with NSU. I'm sure they will operate this blunder in an economical manner as well. That'll get everybody driving to the station. But wait...if they have to drive to the station....we haven't really taken any cars of the road have we??

I am in support of light rail, to the the far reaches of the region. And I think they should adopt this song for advertising..to advocate it's use.
"Clang ,clang, clang went the trolley
Ding, ding, ding went the bell
Zing, zing, zing went my heartstrings as we started for Huntington Dell.
Chug, chug, chug went the motor
Bump, bump, bump went the brake
Thump, thump, thump went my heartstrings as we glided for Huntington Lake."
The Trolley Song
Judy Garland (it's very catchy) LOL

I guess you missed the article that came out about a year ago I believe, that explained the plight of a married couple that lived near Newtown and road the bus to work near town center. It routinely took them 2 hours to get a couple miles, and the frequently were late or absent because of the terrible bus service. The HRT bus line is a joke if you are really depending on it for anything, and that is why noone rides it unless they have absolutely no other option. A light rail line likely would not have such inadequacies. I would gladly ride a train, but Id probably bicycle through a blizzard before depending on HRT buses to get me any where.

Streetcars once operated in both Norfolk and Portsmouth, and there once were two electric (interurban) routes between downtown Norfolk and the VB Oceanfront. Additionally, Hampton and Newport News were also served by streetcars. The Norfolk lines were the last of the Tidewater, VA electric lines to be replaced by buses, having endured through WWII. Not only was the rolling stock old [some of the cars were second-hand from other properties], but Virginia Transit did not obtain any of the newer streetcars which had come upon the transit scene in the mid-1930's. Too, the City of Norfolk - following other cities nationwide - desired to rid the streets of fixed-rail transit service. Thusly, all of these factors combined hastened the demise of VTC trolley service. The new TIDE line will follow to some extent a portion of an old VTC rail line north of CBD/Norfolk, coupled with a segment of the old Norfolk Southern RR line east of downtown Norfolk. This line extends to within a few blocks of the VB Oceanfront, and was the focus of 1989/1999 attempts to restore passenger rail service between Norfolk-VB in the mode of LRT.

Just exactly who are all these people who will be riding the Blight Rail? If they are so stressed by gas prices, etc; WHY ARE THEY NOT RIDING THE BUSSES THAT ARE RUNNING NOW?? What will be the new motivation to ride a bus on rails over riding bus on wheels? Why do I constantly see 90% empty busses driving all over Norfolk if there are all these people crying for mass transit? Busses are mass transit.

Reading the last comment by aalto about Town Center, I am reminded of my favorite sage, Yogi Berra, who is reported to have said...It's too crowded, no one goes there anymore. Point is, just because we offer a more urban lifestyle around the light rais stations does not mean we will not have the suburban lifestyle to continue to offer to those who want a half acre of land and a house in the middle. And of course we already have a semi urban environment at the Beach. A first class city offers a variety of lifestyles, and it is to that diversity of housing types to which we should aspire. I believe the market will support that and the areas around the starter line which already includes town center could include high value multi use projects at other stops. One only has to visit the many cities that have incorporated this style of development in their strategic plans to see how the new urbanism can grow and prosper.

By over half? I'm hoping I interpreted this part of the comment correctly..Although I'm not going to attempt to verify Henry's facts, he seems to know what he is talking about, so now I'll say this.. Can't Va Beach vote on it again, since the estimated cost has reduced by half in reality? Unless there is an amount of validity to some "other reasons", that I have heard that "smells" strongly of exclusionism..I concede that Va Beach is not Norfolk..but seems like it still may be cheaper as well there..Maybe buying the property needed there is a lot more than Norfolk. Of course I am guessing. Any real estate I have bought has been in Chesapeake. And it is a long way from Newtown Rd to the Oceanfront.

Virginia Beach opponents, and even Mike Barrett, are still stuck refighting the 1999 referendum campaign. That proposal was over $69 million per mile and sank under it's own weight.

Norfolk's Starter Line is budgeted at $31.4 million per mile, 55% less. The 1999 loss forced HRT back to the drawing board, and they came up with a realistic proposal. Comparing what's on the table now to 1999 is apples vs. oranges.

In addition, Virginia Beach is now facing buildout north of the Green Line. The Comprehensive Plan envisions urban pockets in the Strategic Growth Areas, a process that would be greatly boosted by LRT. (No, Mike, forget about your R&HA crack pipe dream.)

Speaking of referendum campaigns, everyone remember 2002? Yes, we're still facing non-attainment status under the Clean Air Act. Given it's sanctions, the only Federal transportation construction funding we'll qualify for is LRT. Light rail trains run on electric; hybrid feeder buses primarily do, too.

I support Light Rail, I live in VB, AND....I use the bus to get around. For example, from TCC: Catch the 25 up Princess Anne Rd to Newtown station; then Ride the Tide into Downtown. Yes Reid, light rail has to start somewhere. Take the DC Metro for example. It started with just the Red Line from Rhode Island Ave to Farragut North; purely within DC. Now look at it INCLUDING bus connections. Yes Reid, I use the bus in VB today even though you consider it a misuse of taxpayer funds (as pointed out by Jessica B).

you have no right to complain about the overburdened 264 or VB Blvd. this was your cheapest fix. now all of you who complain about federal money will be complaining again when it comes time to widen and improve 264. have fun in traffic.

It's so sad that so many people on here are so short sighted, stuck in the past or scared of progress that they have to belittle every effort to improve this area. I'm sure you all would prefer there were no interstates and we all rode horses still too. No gridlock then. As for light rail, I'm sure it wont make a huge impact at first because its just a starter line, but as it grows it will be a success. Chesapeake and Portsmouth are next in line now anyway because of their more realistic view of transportation. The original vision was for it to go all the way to the oceanfront. It will get there somehow in the next 10-15 years, but the "no-brigade" made sure VB would have to wait (even though they still pay). A line from EVMS (and eventually up Hampton Blvd. to ODU and the Navy Base) through Downtown, Harbor Park, NSU, the interchange, Newtown, Town Center, Hilltop Laskin, Oceana and the Oceanfront would be (and will be) a raging success. Fortunately, VB city council has changed since the referendum and seems to see the light. I wouldnt be surprised if they find a loophole to get on board soon.

And whoever said the homeless and thugs are the only people who will ride is complet

Okay, so I was thinking about a project to build a "Little Tyke's Maglev Train" set... and I got to looking at Wikipedia on Maglev trains. I noticed there is a blurb about ODU, and about a new test track. I hit up American Maglev Technology's site, and sho' nuff... in 2007 a new 2000' guideway was built in Georgia by AMT (the people originally pushing the ODU project). There is video footage of a car moving on the guide way there but who knows if it's under maglev power or conventional (or rigged) propulsion. I know work is still underway and levitation control system work has been done at ODU to correct the problems with the train there, but they would need more funding to carry students and football is generally a higher priority with Americans.

Donkey - the Maglev is a research project, and big portions of the funding came from Lockheed Martin & Dominion Electric. A maglev system would be WAY better than the Blight Rail crust transit garbage that is being put in as we type. The light rail cruft is grade level and will plug up traffic. It's sounds slow. It's going to be run by HRT, which has questionable ability to manage money. Elevated maglev moving at 100+ MPH, now *THATS* the future. Re-deployment of trolly cars is *meh*. I could throw a rock and hit a station from where I live, I could throw a rock and hit a station where I work. I don't see myself riding it. I'll walk to work on nice days and drive on rainy days (ROCKING OUT all the way around the block). Others may benefit from Light Rail, I just think it's a stupid stupid stupid solution. But it's obvious on this board that everyone dumps on the maglev project, which I think is absolutely great. We just saw trillions of dollars misinvested in a housing bubble that is going to evaporate. What's a couple of million to a university to develop future transportation for the country?

How can anyone think that this project is worth $31,000,000.00
(31 Million Dollars) per Mile. Even if this project was intended to progress this area into mass transit. It will never pay for itself. The so called visionaries that run this city and clean out our pockets on a daily basis are the only ones making out on this deal. They must all be voted out. We must send a message.

So based on your name, NorVA, apparently you know what the VB citizens want? Did you vote in the referendum? Did you voice your concerns? Probably not since you don't live here. Who is the "resort"? Who is "town center"? Yes, maybe the "resort" wants light rail, and maybe "town center" does, but neither of them had a majority vote. The majority of the voting citizens of VB did not want light rail, and fortunatly we citizens don't have to do everything the "resort" or "town center" wants. So until the "resort" or "town center" becomes the total majority voice of the citizens of VB, I guess they just have to be part of the whole. And the whole spoke. No, citizens of VB do not want light rail. "Resort" and "town center" jsut have to live with it. Whoever they are.

That doesn't do much a roadway bus can't do.

About all a train/light rail/trolley can do is eliminate the need for the driver to steer, which can even be extended to the use of remote operated driverless vehicles (which would make some passengers nervous).

A bus can take a detour, impossible with a light rail vehicle. And you don't have to speed large quantities of money tearing up Monticello or Brambleton Avenues to install trolley tracks.

Has anyone checked the archives to see why Norfolk ripped out the light rail lines (AKA Trolleys) in the last century and replaced them with a bus system?

You'll be sorry when all the "free" federal money runs out and localities have to fork it over.

The government only has the money that it has taken FROM the citizens, the government has NO money of it's own. And once the fiasco is finished, MY money will be taken from me in the form of a gas tax, special sales tax, or some other scheme to continue to fund this loser.
SHEESH!

Its interesting to listen to these people from VB talk of how it wold never work. Have you all listened to your own city? The Resort WANTS light rail. Town Center WANTS light rail. Now i'm not a city planner but I don't think that light rail at just those places would work. ... which means theyre asking for a whole line.

What did HOV lanes solve? NOTHING! What will light rail solve? NOTHING!
We live in a society of convenience and waiting for trains, walking further than 25 yards or any inconvenience have already and will again prove the failing factors in this project also.

I am proud that I was in the majority that voted no for the light rail. However it was not due to anyone group or person, but my belief that it was wrong for VB. Light rail would have created so much more gridlock along the already overdeveloped major roads in VB. Heck, Town Center has created a mess at Independence. And VB council's vision is to wait and see. Why would I vote to contribute to additional gridlock? If the planners had used the "starter" line to relieve the real 60,000 plus traffic jam on I-64 I would have been all over it, voted yes all the way. But to tout as a plus for redevelopment in norfolk, and as a way to provide tourists a way to visit downtown norfolk, no way was I voting yes. Agreed VB is to spread out, a fault of poor planing years ago. Can't fix that now, and a train sluggin down the NS tracks isn't going to fix the road infrastructure mess. Anyone that has to drive in VB will know, Rosemont, Lynnhaven, Witchduck - good luck there.

Mike Barrett says:
Offering the urban lifestyle is also a benefit as young professionals are running away as fast as they can from the suburban lifestyle to which their parents subjected them.
+++++++++++++++

Maybe you didn't mean it in this way, but are you implying that suburban lifestyles are *subjected* on those young professionals by their parents...as in "forced"? Strange. It's those very suburbs that the young professionals will be fleeing TO in a few years to raise their own children.

Unless you have to drive completely out of your way to get to a train stop, it would likely be economical to park and take the train. There is a reason why in places like NYC, Boston, and Philadelphia, a huge portion of the population doesnt even bother with cars. Just the gas alone to get from Newtown to Downtown Norfolk, even assuming green lights all the way, and no traffic, is going to cost $4-8 a day if you drive the average vehicle (we arent talking about a Prius here). I cant see a daily round trip ticket coming even close to that.

Well, perhaps you have noticed, I happen to support light rail at the Beach, and am proud to have been among those who voted for it in the advisory referendum held some years back. Since then, of course, the wisdom and experience of providing multi use development around transit stops has increased around the country, and of course, Norfolk continued on and has now received federal and state money to create their starter line. The increased value of the real estate that is used for its highest and best use is one of the ancillary benefits of transit oriented development. Offering the urban lifestyle is also a benefit as young professionals are running away as fast as they can from the suburban lifestyle to which their parents subjected them. If we as a city and a region are to attract talent to grow new small businesses, we need to ensure that we become more urban, less suburban, more diverse, and more open to new ideas and change. I applaud the Tide and look forward to my first ride.

Will the domestics and nurses headed to Sentara Medical Center in Norfolk be able to afford to drive to Newtown Road, pay for parking, purchase a two-way ticket and buy lunch in the hospital cafeteria every day?

Best deal is for once the VB council followed the voice of the people. No, to the tide of failure. Smart Choice. The BRT would be a better choice, but still a waste. At least with BRT, when it fails, the buses can be reused. The little choo-choo in norfolk will rust away and be added to the train museum in portsmouth. Not sure why verizon would offer FIOS/DSL to the middle of the bay though. Seems kinda silly. But it is available in VB. Ordered, just waiting for installation! Just a question Mike, do you ever offer any suggestions or just bash the people that look out for the little guy?

In an area losing population we are to believe that an average of 9265 people per day will be riding the blight rail?? To where? a 7.4 mile line. Say this waste of money runs 18 hrs a day, 7 days a week. You're trying to tell me that 515 people, each hour of each day, will take the car out of the garage, fight traffic to get to a blight rail station, park in weather or dark, walk to the station, stand there waiting on the next train, go a max of 7 miles, get off and be limited to destinations that are in walking distance (winter, rain, heat of summer, dark of night) then wait to take the thing back, ride with thugs and smelly homeless on a dirty train (don't touch anything), walk back to the car and drive home????? Why not just drive the 7 miles in the first place. 515 people will not do this each hour of each day. Mark my words...based on 29 years of doing transportation studies they won't. Why are they not riding the more convenient busses now?? Just answer that question.

Why do people here mention mass transit and the Blight Rail in the same breath?? This is NOT mass transit. Busses were already serving those who will ride this tax subsidized pig. Not a single publicly owned light rail system in the US covers it's own costs. What all of these articles forget to point out is the fact that the $240M+ cost with state and federal help is ONLY the INITIAL capital cost of construction. These things have astronomical yearly operating costs that will not be funded by anything except...you guessed it, Norfolk taxpayers. In a city struggling to balance the budget, this sort of wasteful pet project spending is criminal. These funds could have been used towards projects with low operational costs that actually relieve traffice instead of a project that will lead to more gridlock. Having people drive to the blight rail station to go only another 7 miles max is not a solution to traffic. Starter line my butt. Just think what this money could have been used for. Socialized transportation does not work any better than any other socialized programs.