Judges to Norfolk: Build courts complex or face legal order

Yes, there is a serious need; the buildings are in terrible shape. Some examples have been cited, but others include elevator doors close that close on people, and crumbling walls. One courtroom's holding cell is adjacent to Judge Martin's chambers. A few years back, some inmates managed to remove a cement block from the cell wall, and the judge's clerk caught them trying to claw through the wall of chambers!

But I don't agree with the method. It's a threat, and you're never supposed to bite the hand that feeds you! Also, with things being so bad with the economy, the timing is awful. Finally, the city hasn't exactly been batting 1.000 with it's building projects, so how can the citizens be expected to understand and accept this drastic move?

Renovate and make safe a 40 year old building that has asbestos, that needs secure hallways to transport prisoners? The supposed tunnel, yea, there's a tunnel somewhere, but not to the jail. So if it was connected to the jail, they'd still have to build a secure elevator for the prisoners. Oh and those 40 year old elevators that barely work cause they're too old, no problem when they go out, just tell the handicapped and older folks to hike it up two flights of stairs, and tell the folks in wheelchairs to just suck it up. If there were a fire, land records, wills, marriage licenses, all the city records the clerk's office is charged with keeping would be lost, along with the computer equipment and the paperwork for the active court cases. And as I recall Norfolk couldn't handle the DC sniper trials, cause it was too old with too many security issues. And naysayers, please go check out how safe and secure the building really is for all the employees and the general public, and please go on a Friday morning, it's a treat to the eyes, ears and noses!

In an effort to keep from repeating what has been repeated numerous times already: It needs to be done! I've been there, seen that, and it's WAY past it's prime.

I have yet to hear a single reason a NEW building needs to be built. Every single ailment mentioned in the comments has to do with individual pieces that can all be repaired or renovated. Since when do we build new facilities because the current one has roaches? Roaches don't eat buildings; they eat food that the inhabitants drop and store so this problem will follow you to the new building. Metal detectors don't work? Buy new ones. Fix the ones you have. What's the plan here? They will work better in a newer building? When my AC doesn't work correctly I have it repaired or replaced. I say ignore these elitist judges. If they push the issue, the building cetainly does not need to be downtown. Get some land near the new LR at Newtown. The Sherrif's office can even reserve a car to transport prisoners.

Someone always chimes in to say " Put the kids first" or "What about the children?" It is usually someone who doesn't realize using all caps and superfluous exclams actually detracts from the effectiveness of his/her argument. Control your anger and please make a reasoned, calculated argument. The style only turns people away and makes you look emotionally unstable.

These all sound like fixable problems.... If the structure itself is sound, why not do a phased renovation? The city has lost too many buildings in the quest for revitalization. With a limited budget, rehabbing makes far more sense than building new facilities.

If overcrowding is a problem, why not extend court hours? Get double the use out of the same amount of space. Private businesses get creative when times are tough -- we should expect no less from entities which are paid for with our tax dollars.

According to yesterdays article in The Pilot it stated "State code permits the Circuit Court to issue a writ of mandamus, or a legal order, forcing the council to perform an act required by law when it has neglected or refused to do so."
OK lawyers, what law or act has Norfolk council neglected? The court is still functional. Also, I understand that there is a tunnel in the Circuit Court that leads from the jail to the court room to keep prisoners out of the halls. What happened to that?
I hold much contempt for Paul Fraim and the Norfolk City Council, but I think they are being used as scapegoats in this case.

Frankly it was the judges method in demanding the new courthouse with a threat more than the need for public safety. I support public safety but issueing threats is not the way to go.

If they think the judges are demanding an elitest building for themselves. Everyone with a negative comment needs to go to court on a Friday to witness the 100s of citizens waiting for their family/friends to be sentenced, civil and criminal attorneys milling about waiting for their cases to begin, the courthouse staff trying to work, and the movement of 40-70 prisoners up and down the hallways, within mere feet of everyone. Then add in the heating/air conditioning that sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, duct work that blows out black muck, elevators that sometimes work, sometimes don't, the mold growing in the bathrooms, that don't have hot water and the roof that leaks after a heavy rain storm. Talk about a secure, safe place to go to work everyday. The city has an obligation to provide its citizens a safe and secure courthouse to transact business and provide the courthouse staff with a safe place to work. And don't forget about all the city records that are maintained in the courthouse, let's not even think about what a fire would do!

To those who say this is a luxury: Visit the courthouses yourself. Whether the cases are criminal or civil, emotions can run high and these buildings are just not safe. Physically, they are lacking. The floors, for example, aren't in the best of shape and someone is going to get hurt badly when (not if) they fall. I've fallen twice, so I know what I'm talking about. Visit Virginia Beach, Suffolk, or Chesapeake, and then try to justify why Norfolk City Council won't provide adequate facilities as they are required to by law. The judges have negotiated for years and have been patient. However, it seems that City Council has been taking advantage of that patience. They should not be allowed to get away with it any longer.

And, we can't combine Federal Court with Portsmouth and Norfolk state courts, although that is a creative idea...

based on the judges responses, it would seem regina may not want to shift money around since it is obvious there's been 20 years of shifting monies around regarding upgrading the court complex to no satisfactory end.

perhaps the citizens of the city of norfolk would like to have a bunch of criminals running around their streets?

this article definitely suggests it is time to build a new court complex.

might be a good thing to take over the waterside area for the new complex too - would be a good use of the land there.

after 43 years of use i'm think the taxpayers have got their monies worth out of the current complex, which is still usable upon building a new court complex.

I too work in the courts on a daily basis. This is not about the judges being concerned about their own safety. That is one small part of this.
What the judges are concerned about is a public safety. Three years ago, I recall a 7 year old girl going into juvenile court to testify against the man who raped her...and the man's friends tried to stare her down as she walked into the courtroom. She understandably began to cry and this was an incredibly traumatic experience for her...to have to walk by the friends of the man who raped her...and face their attempts to intimidate her. There was no where else for them to sit...nor for her to walk. Every day, parties facing custody disputes have to stare each other in the face as they are waiting for their case to be called. Norfolk courts are the worst - by far - in the area...and yet Norfolk has the one of the heaviest dockets. Naysayers have no idea how much is done in Norfolk courts with minimal resources. The judges have been patient enough. Once about two years ago, I counted 4 roaches (during one restroom visit) in the Circuit Court. These roaches were all over 1.5 inches long. I do not ever recall seeing four roaches of

you actually go to the courthouse and see for yourself. Many people work at the courts other than the judges. The bathrooms are horrible and falling apart. There are dimly lit hallways, offenders being brought in and out of hallways make it a big security risk. How about courtrooms that either too hot or cold. Also the metal detectors work when they want to. People seem to think that the judges are whining...ever thought the judges are also trying to help the people working with them? Such as the clerks, attorneys, deputies, etc.

Is where the court house should be.

I work in all the courts downtown and what jenniferl41317 said is very true. The metal detectors don't really work very well. It's extremely difficult to find buildings and it's almost like a labyrinth. The facilities are extremely old and those limitations cause the courts to plod through their dockets. On some days, people have to wait in the hall for their case because there is simply no place to sit. Judges are not safe walking from their chambers through the hallways with inmates. And the jail is extremely over-crowded, which causes hazards for the deputies and a backlash on everyone else who feels their misery. Most inmates sleep on the floor in overcrowded cells and during the summer, the heat is misery. If there were a fire, I shudder to think of trying to get everyone out in time. The facilities are almost inoperable at this point. I don't think we want luxury; we just want to be able to do our jobs in some sense of an orderly fashion and also provide the taxpayers with good service in a clean and user-friendly environment.

As I recall the biggest issue with the Norfolk courts is functional obsolecence from a security standpoint. Now Portsmouth has more of a safety/health issue with the asbestos in the courthouse, while the federal circuit court in Norfolk is not big enough or in compliance with some some of the pickier new security regs.

I know there are a number of regular commenters on these forums who think regional government is a harbinger of the apocalypse, but it seems incredibly stupid to be building three separate courthouses within a mile of each other within the span of the few years. It so happens there's an empty parcel across the street from the federal courthouse in Norfolk that doesn't look like it's going to be built on any time soon... how about the involved parties all sit down and look at the feasibility of building one big courthouse (on the Granby Tower site or elsewhere) and sharing it if possible.

The primary issue is what i being stated by others. Some public works are important as others have said. This is where money needs to go and not to developers who kick back to councilmen. I will be more then happy a katz to get you a clear list of needs that have been confirmed for some 20 years both in family courts, circuit and criminal. That is just it, this has been known for a long time so that is not the disputable fact. The over arching issue is the mIsaappropriation of the council and mayor. Obviously you agree with the loose spending in regards to the priorities of the council but I ask you to look to this water mark; the judges have sat back and privately taken issue with constitutionality of the council for some time and this is something they can speak to because they work there. Fortunately, our courts and judges are not mired in politics once they rule. I would argue however, our state legislature and city council has certainly tried and succeeded and politicizing the courts

Actually, the courthouses are in terrible shape. There are cockroaches, water leaks, terrible lighting, not to mention the dangerous conditions presented due to the poor layout and the proximity of the criminals to the general public. They are most certainly not the comfortable surroundings that some of you are imagining.

Are you KIDDING me??

Where do these judges get off. Our children have been waiting for new school buildings much longer than these judges.
Where were these judges and their court orders while our children have been sitting in sub standard schools (Especially the Elementary level). Many of our school buildings NEED to be replaced. Have ANY of these judges visited the schools or "so called" recreation centers in the last decade. Maybe the "burden" on these judges would be lessened if the children had something to do and some place to go.

Get in line judges, beyond any doubt, our CHILDREN NEED to come FIRST!!!!

Asnerj, since you seem more familiar with the buildings than the rest of us, perhaps you could share with us some of their problems. However, I would hazard a guess that the facilities are much better than in many of others funded by the city taxpayers.

The determining factor must be whether or not the buildings are adequate for the courts to conduct business. If they are, then there are much more pressing needs for a limited budget. If they are not, then how is business being conducted now?

Judges: and the courts have worked with council for nearly 20 years toward new facilities...

Good grief..whats another day or two in the life of a councilmemeber..hmmm? Good to see someone is forcing their hands..and making them keep their promises instead of handing out sums of money to contractors that renege on their committments to build...

About time the council memebers got their hands slapped..maybe now, if a few of them can be put in jail for contempt..that would be a day to remember!

In the artical it states that the courts and the city leaders have been working at this for 20(twenty) years...Thats a long time and we still dont have security issues resolved..Im not the sharpest tool in the shed but whats up NORFOLK twenty years ago we could have built the complex for the 30 million dollars alone...Im sure the buildings are in over all good shape could we not just upgrade them to address the security issues for a fraction of the cost It would be nice to no what these security issues are that warrent a new facility..Of course I am only a tax payer with not much money maybe if the city asseser would increase the value of my home and that of my neighbors the city could generate enough reveniue to pay for the new complex...hay mister judge why not charge the most you can on fines and fees this could generate more funds just because it did not work for new roads who nos maybe us comon folks will let this one slide by

Because the council and city manager are running the city into the ground. Williams would rather pay parents for their kids scoring well on school tests than to make sure the judicial branch is working in an asbestos-free environment.

Are you aware of how many issues there are with the buildings? Obviously not or you would not blindly comment. Educate yourselves before you make faulty assumptions that the judges are asking for anything but the necessities. Look at the council and the misguided notions of city money and where it is going by proxy of the corruption of these elected officials. All who have commented negatively to the judges need to familiarize yourselves before you condemn

As an attorney who has appeared in the Norfolk courts on numerous occasions, I can tell you that the judges are not working with luxuries. The buildings are old, decrepit, and pose serious safety issues for the judges and the attorneys who practice in the courts. I challenge those who feel that the new buildings are not warranted to spend a few hours sitting in the Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court where fights are breaking out and then say that the old buildings do not pose a threat to safety. Before you decide that the judges are not deserving of a safe working environment, please visit those buildings and see what the conditions are truly like.

If Their Honors are having to go work by the light of a flickering bare bulb, must go to the bus terminal to relieve themselves, or endure other challenges which impede their ability to perform their jobs, I can appreciate their desire for a new building. Otherwise, they need to just do their jobs like the rest of us.

Of course, if they were willing to conduct proceedings 24 hours a day so that citizens wouldn't have to miss work to contest the 'sitting duck' traffic tickets that the Norfolk Police Department is so fond of issuing, maybe we'd have more sympathy for their cause.

In the court of public opinion, the judges need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they need funds allocated for the new building MORE than any other entity in the city.

Wow, and I thought Virginia Beach was bad! So the judges want a new building, and will go to court if they dont get what they want. Then the citizens/neiborhoods have to take a back seat? So if the citizens dont get what they WANT can they do the same thing? I doubt it, and that just makes those judges look like greedy fools!

The clowns in the black robes are not federal judges. They are state and local idiots who think they are god and can demand that funds be spent on their wishes instead of critical items begging for scarce funds.

All the judges that signed the letter should immediately be impeached by the General Assembly and replaced with people that don't have the elitist mentality. Most of them are unqualifed and only have the positions because of political paybacks and the good ol boy system.

Our judicial system is as corrupt as any gang of crooks in the country.

Take a tour of the buildings before you make assumptions, we are not talking luxery. Priorities for the council haVE BEEN MIS-GUIDED For far too long

You people must not live in Norfolk. The courts and city hall complex there are totally inadequate. No parking, no security, chopped up into multiple buildings. Norfolk City Hall complex was built in 1965. Don't you think that after almost 50 years the citizens deserve a more efficient courts complex? This isn't about luxury for judges. It's about spending city monies wisely to benefit all citizens and not just special interests in neighborhoods.