Regional lawmakers support HRBT expansion, but have no pay plan

There's an old adage that if you want to know where to build a sidewalk, look for the worn pathways in the grass. Whoever came up with the Third Crossing plan wasn't applying that common sense.

The area's population growth has made our highway system woefully inadequate for timely and efficient emergency evacuation. Sending Norfolk and Virginia Beach residents on a long detour through the M-M tunnel just to arrive at the same point on I-64 is not the answer. Adding another HRBT tube may be costly, but it's the shortest way to get people where they obviously want to go.

The High-Rise Bridge is another bottleneck for evacuating traffic that must be addressed with high priority. Increasing the capacities of Routes 460 and 58 will count for nothing if that bridge remains the choke point.

As for how to pay for these needs:
1) Don't rely on tolls -- they're inefficient, arbitrary, and annoying, and people will waste more gas trying to avoid them.
2) Don't rely on property or real estate taxes -- what does the price of a home have to do with our use of or need for roads?
3) Don't rely on increasing the sales tax -- that takes money from people who can least afford it.

"That's the way systems used to be designed; that is, those with the most political clought got to build it their way, no matter what the science said." Now what part of politics am I missing here. This is ALL about politics and he knows it. What is even more interesting is he stated that expansion of the HRBT should be a much lower priority than the other projects if not completely discounted altogether. Wow, the only project that actually does SOMETHING to relieve commuter traffic congestion IS the HRBT expansion. Isn't commuter traffic congestion relief what we are being sold in order to RAISE taxes? Honestly, this northern transplant thinks that he can fool us like he did his gridlocked yankees.

When you compare this area with Richmond, their average pay in 2006 was 14 percent higher than HR's latest numbers. High tech wages, like computers, was nearly double. 90 miles sure makes a lot of difference. Their housing prices are much less and they aren't facing a huge tax increase for third crossings.

The MPO/HRPDC/LMNOP are just the "Mayors and Chairs" of the localities. They are up for election in May (and in Nov. for VA Beach). If you want these organizations to change, then don't re-elect anyone to city councils or county commissions who voted for joining HRTA.

Here in Chesapeake, I'll be voting for Dr. Krasnoff for Mayor as he, along with Councilman De Triquet and Mayor Edge voted against accepting the unconstitutional HRTA. I'll be voting AGAINST all the other incumbents who voted for it.

If we all do the same, it will send a message that the members of the MPO need to listen to the citizens and not the special interests.

The MPO. The HRPDC. The HRTA. The same politicians singing the same song. The song developers want. When can we get a different voice that cares about citizens instead of developers?

Mr Barret seems to counter Doc Tabor we he posts "you express an opinion counter to what the majority of our citizens want; that is, a comprehensive system of roads, bridges, tunnels, and public transit so we can get around our area and into and out of Hampton Roads." I don't think that Doc Tabor or any of the rest of us want gridlock, chaos, and bottlenecks on the roads. The fact is that the MPO/HRPDC/Partnership is selling the taxpayers of Tidewater a bogus plan of goods. I believe the people of Tidewater will pay taxes and tolls if the road plan was to alleviate their daily commutes to work, to and from the peninsula, and from the shipyards. The HRBT needs to be expanded. Paul Fraim needs to be spanked by the GA and put in his place if he keeps up his arrogant attitude. Also it is also of no relevance that VA pays less in state and gas taxes. We don't live in other states and don't care what other states pay for anything. England pays about L1.08 per liter which works out to about $8.20 a gallon. But we don't live in England so who cares.

Looks like the Feds have recently reviewed the MPO. I was looking at the HRPDC site and found the report by:

1. Going to HRPDC website (HRPDC.org)
2. “Click” on Transportation
3. Highlight Metro Planning Org.
4. “Click” on Quadrennial

Interesting discussion. Sorry i was too busy to join in.

I see Mr. Barrett still attempts to share incorrect information in hopes that he might fool people. Mike, when will you realize that the public isn't as uninformed as you and your Hampton Roads Partnership pals believe we are?

You lost in 2002. Your lost in 2008. We told you HB 3202 was unconstitutional. You did not listen. We sued. We won.

Now, finally, the HRBT will be expanded. Your "plan" was flawed. But you can't admit that.

The MPO and other elaborate charade of non-elected regional government has revealed their true motivations. The MPO "6 projects" aren't intended to solve the commuter traffic congestion problems the folks that live here suffer with; it is a plan for speculative economic development; mostly port expansion tied into more development to the west. Because so many of us fouhgt YOUR plan Mike, finally we will have a new plan. That is good news for Tidewater!

Charles makes a good point below. I found the following report from the about the MPO talking about regional consensus building in Hampton Roads.

http://www.hrpdc.org/Documents/Transportation/2008/Final%20Hampton%20Roads%20Cert.%20ReportCombined.pdf

Fourth, if it means raising someone's taxes, so that the people pay, and he and his cronies make a free profit, Mike_B is probably for it.

First, the Federal Government does not need to tax it's citizens, to dole out money to each state for pet transportation projects. That's the job of each state. If the people in each state kept more of their paycheck, then maybe state taxes to pay for these items would not burden us that much.

Second, if it's big business that is going to profit the most from something, then let big business help finance it.

Third, Reid is right.. (Hey Reid, this is Doug).

Fourth, if it means raising someone's taxes, so that the people, rather than he and his cronies make a free profit, Mike_B is probably for it.

Let's run this post one more time..."services you demand are incredibly expensive"...
The thought is correct...the object of criticism is not. The services that the politicians and their allies in the business community demand, yet do not offer to help fund, are incredibly expensive.
We citizen-dolts refuse to be the absorb the check at the cashiers desk. That was the message in 1998, in 2002, in 2007 and has not changed in 2008.

The legislators are getting the message at long last...you can fool me once....

Some constantly write about "anti tax zealots" preventing the road improvements from being done and "anti tax zealots" keeping the area in the "backwater" life. See, these people are not native to this area, rather, they are transplants from places like NJ or NY. They left there because taxes had reached their peak and the slum-rise apartments weren't to their liking. So they moved here and brought with them financial backing of the corrupt construction companies from that area. They started up or bought our construction companies here and used their experience to conn the local politicians into subsidizing their development projects. Of course they yell out that it's good for the prosperity of the area. Our taxes will have to go up to subsidize their projects, then another increase in taxes will be needed to provide the infrastructure to support their projects, then another increase to maintain their project, then another tax increase because their fictitious future revenue numbers never pan out. So basically, the only people prospering from the conn job is the developers and the paid off politicians. They both leach off our tax dollars. Simple enough?

Looks like the Feds have recently audited the MPO. I was looking at the HRPDC site and found the report by:

1. Going to HRPDC website (HRPDC.org)
2. “Click” on Transportation
3. Highlight Metro Planning Org.
4. “Click” on Quadrennial

Looks like they had a citizens meeting too! Anyone participate?

Southeastern Virginia contributes the second (behind NoVa) to largest amount of revenue to the state budget than any other region. The entire Commonwealth benefits from that revenue. We all know that transportation is a problem both here and in NoVa. We know that in order to continue to prosper here and in NoVa that we need to build new roads and tunnels. Since every region in the state will benefit from the increased state revenue upon completion of the projects, then why can't every region contribute to the initial investment? If the state is going to isolate HR and NoVa by making us fund 100% of the investment, then they should isolate HR and NoVa and let us keep 100% of the profits reaped on the investment. I agree with the former poster that said to eradicate the state income tax and raise the state sales tax. I walk to work and live withing 3 miles of everything I need (Yes, I have cars). Stay out of my wallet on this!

I am not going to speak about how to pay for this project (Gas Tax). What we need to question is that adding 1 lane going each way will not help traffic. By the time it is built the tunnel will be as congested as it is now. There needs to be 4 lanes in each direction to allow for growth. If people would have thought about growth when 664 and 168 were built, there would not be as many back ups on those roads and they wouldn't be talking about expanding 664 only 15 years after it was built. I will also make the comment that the high rise bridge in Chesapeake needs 4 lanes in each direction. Why build another obsolete bridge with only 3 lanes each way? You will have 7 lanes of traffic on 64E at Battlefield having to merge into 3 lanes at the bridge. Another choke point. I think our traffic engineers and transportation leaders are only looking short term. they need to look out 20 - 30 years so our kids are not going through the same situation.

WOW! Increase state income tax on everyone making over 100K a year. That way they can take it off their federal taxes. No, The can take it off of their earnings, which will in NO way recoup what was paid out.

I have a better idea. Scrap the state income tax, and incorperate it in the state sales tax by raising it. What this will do is leave more of your check in your pocket to pay for rent/mortgage. and thousands of criminals who pay no taxes on their drug money and theft, etc etc, will pay taxes on it when they buy their fancy houses and cars, and when they buy all the stuff that everyone else buys at the local stores. It will aos reduce the state payroll, now there is no need to have to go ever the yearly income tax refunds of every state member, because there is no more income tax filings, that will reduce state payroll, reduce state computer equipment requirements, office requirements, and increase tax revenues at the same time.

Well that just ignores the need for engineers and traffic experts to develop the statistical data required to be provided to the Commonwealth Transportation Board and the Federal Highway Administration to solve present and anticipated future requirements and to select the solution that is the most cost effective. To design a regional system of traffic flow by sticking ones finger in the air to see which way the politics are blowing is an absolute waste of resources. Or to think that we should put widening the HRBT ahead of other projects when the engineering analysis shows that it is not the most cost effective solution is the height of absurdity. That's the way systems used to be designed; that is, those with the most political clought got to build it their way, no matter what the science said. To suggest that we go back to politics as the way to design ones interstate and inter regional system would be to go back to early 1910 period before the government reform movement occurred.

Odd the Pilot does not even mention the "3rd Crossing" in the entire article. It IS the core and reason for the legislation. Almost all of the posters are well aware of this fact. The rest of the projects are pap to dupe the locals.
The characterization of the projects as "traffic congestion relief" hasn't fooled anyone.
If we cannot afford all projects (and not even mentioning the only one that might actually relieve traffic congestion),PRIORITIZE, like we citizens have to do every day.

Finally (after 10 years), the HRBT has been forced into the bargaining mix, and is gaining the momentum stifled by the MPO,HRPDC,press,builders,port,etc over these past 10 years.

The third crossing proposal is just an excuse to get the taxpayers to pay for a port diveway. Corporate welfare at its best. Those that deny any discussion about expanding the HRBT instead all have something to gain by the building of the third crossing. Ask the frequent posting cheerleaders for a third crossing and they will admit that their companies will reap big profits from this. If our leadership would actually lead they'd give the residents on both sides of the HRBT what we want, improvements to the HRBT!

http://hamptonroads.com/2007/12/interactive-animated-map-norfolks-light-rail

This must represent a Sunday afternoon in these simulations.
Note all the extra stopping and backup caused when the train crosses and all the lanes taken by the train. What about the accident potential?

Well, we are not chasing federal dollars, we are just trying to use our own dollars that we send to the federal government for our benefit. Further, you express an opinion counter to what the majority of our citizens want; that is, a comprehensive system of roads, bridges, tunnels, and public transit so we can get around our area and into and out of Hampton Roads. It is absolutely amazing to me that you would give up the right to the money we pay ourselves into the federal transportation fund, especially in view of the fact that the three major economic drivers for our economy, that is, the military, the Port of Virginia, and the visitor and tourism industry, are dependant upon transportation. It is this kind of extremism that could in the end doom us to backwater status. That may be fine with you, but for all of us invested in our homes and our businesses here in Hampton Roads, that is simply not an acceptable alternative. We pay less in sales and gas taxes for transportation than almost every other state, and it shows.

This link will show you all the video of the initial light rail. How this will help traffic I do not now considering the 50% reduction in roadway to cater to maybe 1% of the present commuters who might use it.

Now if this had been a raised (L) system not hindering the present flow of commuters I might have said, great idea!
Did the HOV lanes help traffic flow for the masses? No! They should be directional lanes, in in the morning and out in the afternnon.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-725597592898956543&q=the+tide+norfolk&total=79&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Oh another un popular question coming up:

With the Pilot head on the chopping block you still have the resources to assign 2 bodies to one story? Know wonder you like pork.

I'm sure the MPO can rewrite their Fed proposal to conform to those projects which are economically viable using user fees, but even if they can't, or more likely won't, it is still cheaper for Hampton Roads to build the projects we will actually benefit from using State and local funds alone than to build the ones we don't want with Federal help.

Chasing Federal dollars often leads us to do foolish things. Look at the deal this way, the Feds tell us that if we waste a huge sum of local dollars, they will give us some fraction of that total of Federal dollars to waste as well.

Its still wasted.

I agree with MikeDLong. There's a popular expression, "Drive it like you stole it". I want governments to "Spend it like they earned it", not like it was a gift from some rich uncle. Yes, we need roads, but did we really need that $11,000,000 (in '02 dollars) toilet facility in New Kent? We need schools, but did we need that $100,000 automatic flagpole? Leadership is about making hard choices, and those choices, Delegate Alexander, should involve more than what fee, charge or tax; they should also involve what we really need instead of someone's wish list. I believe ODU has repeatedly done a graduate level study that has shown that a bridge crossing would be just as effective, safe, etc, but would cost substantially less and flow traffic better than the tunnels that so many drivers slow down for. Yet for some reason, no one even talks about a bridge.

Well here's what we do.

Those who chhose to use the new crossing can pay $5.00 each way. Those who choose not to pay use the existing tunnels.

Well actually, if we proceeded in that fashion, we would forfeit our federal share to our competitors. The Fed's require that the MPO produce a system that meets their criteria and that it be resourced constrained, that is, we have a method to pay for it. Of course, had we proceeded in 2002, the cost would have been half the number today, and of course every day we delay, the cost goes up as well. I agree that the bulk of the financing should be user fees/taxes, and frankly, I would prefer gas taxes, tolls, and taxes on uses directly related to transportation. Of course, what one citizen prefers does not public policy make, and at least our Hampton Roads caucus acknowledges the need and now must find a politically acceptable way to pay for it. If they don't, we need to vote them all out of office and find representatives who will act in the public interest and do what is best for Virginia.

The reason we are in this mess is that the MPO/HRTA/HRDPC/HRPartnership, which are really all the same people, wants to force the people to give their cronies at the Port a new driveway, and tried to hold worthwhile projects that would actually do some good, hostage to an all-or-nothing package.

The package should be broken up to its individual projects and each either built or abandoned based on its viability under the User Fee method of financing roads that served Virginia well since the turn of the 20th century. (Search TidewaterLiberty.com for "paying for roads")

Financing of a transportation projects should fall on those who benefit from them. Income taxes and property taxes, like general sales taxes, have no relationship to road use and should not be used for roads. Likewise, mass transit projects should be self financed by fares, if the demand is there, they will be built, if not, they are a waste. The marketplace will decide best.

Nine billion dollars for ALL the improvements needed. 1.7 Million people in Hampton Roads (acording to Wikipedia.) Equals $5,294 per person. Please mail your checks in by Friday.