I suggest that both of you would enjoy reading MERE CHRISTIANITY by C.S. Lewis. It is a good read for anyone interested in a thoughtful, non-sectarian, non-evangelical, expansive view of Christianity.

Southron

Since I'm so impartial and all ;-)

Both of your ideas on religion are interesting to me. I have struggled with my opinions in this area for some time now. Archie, I like your questioning attitude - the biggest turn off to religion is that holier-than-thou self-righteous (and can I just add, hypocritical!) attitude that abounds within the traditional paradigm of Christianity. Instead of trying to know it all, I now try to understand it all. That, in itself, is a huge step for me and one that I am enjoying...more than I ever enjoyed while attending my oh-so-Godly home church growing up.

However, I don't eschew all organized religion. I do find comfort, education, and even joy! in spending time with those who seek to learn more like I am. I have previously blogged about the church my family now attends and I can't say enough positive things about it. My favorite is ending with "The Peace Song" as my son calls it - Let There Be Peace on Earth. I think people coming together seeking some sort of higher calling can be used very positively. It is sad that so often people like Pat Roberston are the face of Christianity when his bigoted and myopic views couldn't be further f

Me, too. What would the cheerleaders be like in such a competition? There would have to be some sort of referee as well. How would we score, since different ideas would undoubtedly hold different weights?

Archie, I am, quite concerned that you feel I am berating you when my intentions are/were merely to engage you in a crisp dialogue. Frankly speaking, I go to progressivegal's and your sites because they are interesting. I will readily admit that at times I'm, err ah, a bit probing, but my intentions, I assure you, are most honorable.

Competitive independent thinking? Hmmmm... sort of a free thinking war of words. I like it!

Southron

You claim, and I commend you for this little thing, to be a Christian independent of any organized churches. Yet, you berate me for not being independent as a supporter of secularism. I am, I happily write, without the yoke of any religion. If there be a god, s/he invariably laughs at the useless worship aimed toward his/her vicinity, but, since there is no such creature, I jest.

Being a Christian and an independent thinker is virtually impossible, sonce there are invariables that cannot be challenged, by definition, in Christianity. Gospels are only one example of this, unless you question basic Christianity theology as well. Are you able to question the person of Christ? If not, you are not independent in your thinking. Are you able to question the bodily resurrection of Christ? If not, you are not an independent thinker. One who thinks independently holds no inviolate thougts or ideas. All is explorable and may change.

I will put my ability to think independently against yours any day, Southron, and I will come out way on top.

"Go Secularist?" Why, Archie, you make it all sound like a sporting event. In any case, I agree with you about the "no church... No religious leaders" necessary, though I accept the need of others for that sort of thing. Personally, I've been a practicing Christian for as long as I can remember and I haven't attended a church (sans weddings and funerals) or been a member of an organized religion in more than thirty years. Frankly, it has been my experience that organizations of any kind, secular and otherwise, tend to insist on doing your thinking for you, and I simply will not allow that.

Southron

It's the language you use, progressivegal; it is the key to understanding what an individual believes; yours comes across as not only from the so-called left, but are somewhat lock-step. (I fear a latter-day public education has done you in.) In any case, I enjoy our banter; if you're ever of a mind, come over and visit me at "Whistling Dixie" (that goes for you too, Archie). I love real intellectual interplay and I believe deep down that if your ideas are worthwhile, they can can stand criticism.

Southron

I do enjoy critical theory which relies heavily on questioning norms and established paradigms. I haven't gotten into feminist theory much yet, but I'm sure I'll enjoy it when I do ;-)

I'm humbled that you think my ideas and writing are so effective that I am getting them from somewhere other than my own critical analysis of the world. But don't go blaming it all on leftist academia - I was a lefty before being a lefty was so cool ;-)

You have no idea, man. They had a "commissioning ceremony" because they are soldiers for the Lord now...or something.

I seriously thought we were going there to see them all join some branch of the military.

I guess in a way, it is (para)military though, huh?

You had the chance to hear Pat Robertson, "Right Hand of God," speak!

Go Secularists! Religious shenanigans are just that. If one wants to worship a deity, they need no church, no religious leaders to do so. And, one may be a secular humanist and still be a spiritual believer.

"Secularism, Type-A personality, surreal?" I'll be willing to bet all I have that you also use phrases such as inappropiate behavior, sharing with, having issues and gender specific. Language defines how one thinks and who one is; often, in a social/political context, it is a form of mind control; and it is obvious from the way you speak that you are allowing others to think for you. The first thing I suggest you do is question all those psycho-babble platitudes you so frequently use; I know it's difficult, but you'll never think for yourself until you do. And thinking for yourself, as the ancients so frequently reminded us, is the beginning of all wisdom. (Oh, and by the by, secularism is the creation of one Jean Jacques Rousseau and the birth-child of the French Revolution; both man and movement ended their days insane.)

Southron