VIRGINIA BEACH
If a proposed hotel near the convention center is more than 110 feet tall, it could create a radar blind spot off the coast, the Federal Aviation Administration has warned.
That could prevent authorities from spotting some types of incoming missiles or terrorist aircraft.
The FAA sent a letter to Virginia Beach in February objecting to the city's request that a 207-foot-tall hotel be permitted across the street from the center.
The letter said that the "loss in coverage over the water, due to man-made objects, is an unacceptable risk to the air defense mission."
A building that tall would block the FAA's long-range radar from seeing low-
altitude threats along the coast, according to the letter, obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request.
"They're probably worried about low-altitude aircrafts, like cruise missiles, going up the Chesapeake," said Ivan Oelrich, vice president of the strategic security program at the Federation of American Scientists, who has studied this type of long-range radar. "If I were a military planner, that's what I would consider, too."
Four companies have submitted plans to the city for a convention center headquarters hotel. Three of the developers have proposed building the hotel on 19th Street across from Parks Avenue, which the FAA has flagged as the site of a potential radar obstruction.
The companies' sketches show sleek, modern buildings that complement the glass and steel design of the new Virginia Beach Convention Center. Their proposed hotels also stretch up 200 to 207 feet.
A fourth developer wants to build the hotel just west of the convention center but has said he is willing to consider the more popular site.
Virginia Beach officials said they were surprised by the FAA's findings and are trying to understand the intricacies of radar.
Radar problems also were raised in the 1980s when the Beach was negotiating with the Navy over the height of the planned 34-story Pavilion Tower hotel, but most of the concern then dealt with problems pilots would face trying to fly around such a tall building. It was eventually scaled back to 12 stories.
City officials sent the FAA the coordinates of the proposed convention center hotel in December to make sure it didn't interfere with jet flight paths.
The aviation administration's review found that the obstruction to the flight path could be solved by scaling the building down to 180 feet. But the more critical issue was the radar, the FAA said in its reply.
The radar facility that would be affected, located at Oceana Naval Air Station, looks like a giant golf ball. Its mission is to help monitor the airspace along the Eastern Seaboard and track civilian and military aircraft some 200 miles from the shore.
Even Oceana officials didn't expect radar to pop up as a problem, according to e-mails between city staff.
"Every letter I've seen has talked about the flight path," said Stephen White, the Beach planning coordinator. "I've never seen a letter talking about the radar."
In fact, the city had initially wanted the hotel built west of the convention center and had submitted those coordinates, with a possible height of 260 feet, to the FAA. On that site, 100 feet away from the Parks Avenue location, the FAA indicated last summer that the only obstacle was to the flight path and suggested that the city reduce the height to 180 feet.
Donna O'Neill, an obstruction evaluation specialist for the FAA, said federal officials reviewed both sites for any obstructions to long-range radar and only found the problem with the location across from the convention center.
That site is particularly troublesome because the FAA's overlapping radar facility in New Jersey wouldn't be able to fill in what is blocked at lower altitudes by the proposed hotel.
The city has the option of appealing the FAA's decision, O'Neill said, adding: "We're still working on this case."
Beach officials will decide how to respond to the FAA notice after the development authority chooses a headquarters hotel proposal later this year, said Steve Herbert, the city's chief development officer.
There may be a way to shift the hotel so it avoids the radar signal or build it so that it's wide instead of tall, Herbert said.
"It's not anything that we feel that we can't work around," Herbert said. "The design of the building is more important than pure height."
If the developer the city selects says it can't build the hotel without making it tall, city officials may consider appealing the FAA's decision, Herbert said.
Garfield Traub Development is one of the three companies vying to build the hotel across from the convention center.
Despite the radar problems, the site is the best location for the hotel because it's closer to the Oceanfront, said Steve Moffett, president of Garfield Traub's hospitality division.
"I don't think the height is going to be an issue," Moffett said. "We'll comply with whatever the restrictions."
Deirdre Fernandes, (757) 222-5121, deirdre.fernandes@pilotonline.com
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Radar non factor
Evidently Flip didn't understand my post to respond coherently. I'll type slowly so you he understands. The US is monitored by a blanket of radar both military and civilian so that no one radar system would be relied on. Naval ships, Air traffic control, Air Force recon and so on. I guess the so called threat would have to fly in the shadow of this building in order go undetected then. And yes, score one for Flip who probably didn't know the answer to the length of territorial waters until he googled it. Congrats! The argument was that this radar system would detect hostile threats and my point was a submarine missile launch from close by would render that radar ineffective. Which gets back to my argument that several radar systems are used to monitor our shores to detect threats well in advanced. That's why the Navy never raised the issue. Just keep wearing your tin foil hat Flip. The Hotel project should proceed.
Get your facts straight!
Glenn.man - Maybe you should do your research before you post things you don't know about. The territorial sea extends for 12 nautical miles, and after that there's the contiguous zone and exclusive economic zone. An submarine would be blown out of the water by the time it got within 12 nautical miles of Virginia's shoreline, so I don't think you really need to worry about that.
Please keep in mind that the radar facility tracks civilian aircraft as well! Read the article before you start flipping out about the Navy!
RE: MTMSR
Knowing the difference between government agencies and how they "really interlink" and "who" is responsible for what "mission" and "who" is "really using what" for "which purpose" is the key here MTMSR!!!! Now go back to being a child and do some more name calling!!!
no money left to spend
I understand the budget is tight with no money left to spend. I'll be watching to see if money magicly appears for this and other projects. If it does, I'll be first in line to support replacing City Council members.
Are you kidding me?
The Navy can't pick up a missile or enemy aircraft until it is nearly to VB?
That makes me feel safe.
More objections because of jets
I dont know why the city doesnt just turn the running of the city over to the Navy. The city has to ask "mother may I" before they do anything any more. If the Navy dosnt like it they might just take their jets and go home.
I agree
Even though this has nothing to do with the Navy I still say move them to NC. I've had enough with them; let some other town do their patriotic duty.
One Would Think...
..that with a stumbling economy, rising fuel prices, past BRAC issues and development issues, why would Myer Lansky and her "band" even be proposing this! Does VB really need another hotel?? Well, I guess the final "back room" politics will go through and when the whole crew is voted out, they will collect there money. Course, Myera and cohorts will not even dare to live here. They have plans for all that money..and it doesn't include living in the traffic congested, high tax, urban sprawl "matchbox ghettos" that is the beautiful and serene Virginia Beach!
PLEASE READ AGAIN
Please read the article again....the Radar belong as well as the objections came from the "FAA" and not the Navy. The radar is located on the Navy base because it's federal property and no lease or purchase of land was reqired. By the way, that picture must be several years old.
lawling
Virginia Beach officials were trying to understand the "intricacies of radar". That's funny. With our territorial waters extending only 20 miles, a rogue sub can launch it's missiles at us and it would be too late. I'm guessing somewhere close to our shores there's a Naval ship out there with advance early warning as well as other military personel monitoring our shores too. Because this particular radar system could be hacked into or taken out by a terrorist. Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm still trying to understand the "intricacies" of military strategy. Anyway, I think this radar issue is a non factor and Beach officials should be able to move on with their project.
Why am I being censored?
I thought censorship of these responses had ended. It looks like it is back.
Go Navy....
I have an idea,how about using FT Story(which was recently given to the Navy by BRAC) as the radar site after all,it is right on the coast with nothing to interfere with it. The Navy will never return the property(which is about the most beautiful place in VB)to the city anyway. Time for the Navy whom seems to control the purse strings for our city to step up with some helpful solutions rather than sit back and wait for the city to spend tens of thousands of tax dollars on studies and consulting fees ,just to have the Navy say no. If your not part of the solution,then your part of the...NAVY???
Old v. New
I have lived here my whole life and I seen a lot of changes in this city. The City would ask for our opinion about the 31st Street park but when we voted to have it stay as a park they built the hotel anyway. A lot of history has been torn down just to make room for new, bigger and better. I guess the city doesn't really care about the history. They want to build around everything. The Navy was here first and I do live in the flight path and don't really like the low flying till the late hours in the evening when we are all trying to sleep but they were here first. It's pretty sad that the City has to fight our Government that protects us to get what they want. It's really time that the people of Virginia Beach get their City back they way it was and stop putting us in potential danger.
This should come as no
This should come as no surprise. I remember the same oposition presented by the Navy when they built the Pavilion Hotel (Doubletree or what ever it was/is called). The city is a like a child asking three or four times in different ways then doing what they want.
So then
New York is screwed?
Navy Holds Back Progress agan!!!!
City Council needs to make up their minds. Be kept in the dark ages by the Navy or build the "resort City" we need. The Navy will always come up with lame excuses to stop progress. The dumb and greedy city council will always try to work both roads. Vote the Council Out and let the Navy go with it!!!!
Anybody out there?
Hello People; the City is worried about keeping us safe, and you are complaining about them being greedy? What is wrong with this picture? Do you not remember 9/11?
So what?
"That could prevent authorities from spotting some types of incoming missiles or terrorist aircraft."
Big deal. This a hotel we're talkin' folks, a hotel. We just got to have another hotel. What would we do without another hotel?
Weather Radar Hacking
A few years ago I had an idea, but it turned out too difficult to implement. Basically computer software and hardware that you could put near one of the TV stations weather radar systems. It would watch for the radar pulses, and clock itself to it. Then when the news comes on and the weather guy is standing there talking about the weather in front of the radar display, you fire up the software. It would transmit "noise" timed to the sweep at the radar antenna so that as the radar spins (and it is seen on TV) it would print out a computer generated graphic, perhaps a smiley face with some text. The expression from the weather guy would be priceless, and then you have it shut off for the next sweep so it goes away.
So tired of the obnoxious complaining
There must be the same people over and over again that insist on complaining on about "greed" and "vote the bums out." Go move somewhere else. I live in Norfolk and I grew up in Virginia Beach and I love both of the cities. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing but seriously, the same complaints are written over and over and over again!
This is a no brainer
The hotel SHOULD NOT be built.
Almost a simple as the answer to those people that whine about jet noise, move.
It's been done...
Actually, the radar at Facsfac replaced the ones that used to be at Cape Charles Air Force Station, the old Ft Custis, at Cape Charles. You can tour the site, including an old 16" gun emplacement.
Radar
This is just another example of the city not really understanding there is a base here. The more they do to hinder our efforts will result in a negative outcome on the next round of BRAC decisions. The only reason they didnt close the base down last time was they had no where to put the air station. The city will survive without it, but look at the huge tax base they will loose and the time it will take to recover from that. Just wait until they get the environmental impact on the noise level for the new Joint Strike Fighter, you think people are complaining now.....
yes-me-again
I have lived here my whole life and I have seen the city grow & grow despite what the navy had to say. Someone needs to listen because our safty is at risk for an extra buck. We dont need any more hotels. The city of va beach needs to wake up to the real world.
pay later
Beach officials will decide how to respond to the FAA notice after the development authority chooses a headquarters hotel proposal later this year, said Steve Herbert, the city's chief development officer.
Typical Beach attitude, ignore the warnings and figure it out later - at taxpayer expense, no doubt. Is something wrong with figuring things out before approving the hotel?
(BTW guys, the radar belongs to the FAA, not Navy. Can't dump on Oceana over this one.)
jmo
Beach Hotel
Apparently the knuckleheads on the city council have memories that are too short for our city. "VOTE THE BUMS OUT"
"Build it and they will
"Build it and they will come" should be Va Beach's motto. When have they ever listened to anyone but a developer?
To esbar
So you think it's okay to dump on rural people on the eastern shore? People live there, too, you know? Oceana Naval Air Station was there a long time before the City got so greedy, it just had to increase its tax base to support its greedy needs. It makes me wonder what is going on in the heads of people who know there is an air base there, but still decide to move there, and then complain about the noise.
Greed and the City of Virginia Beach
Let the city build the hotel and equip its penthouse with Phalanx mini-guns to shoot down any enemy aircraft, and when the hotel complex is blown out of the sky, the tall hotel problem will take care of itself. Then, it will be too late, but that's greed and the city of Virginia Beach.
new radar
the navy could invest in a new radar location in a remote town somewhere on the eastern shore. done.