Gilmore, beginning Senate bid, blasts Mark Warner on taxes

Ira, I don't dispute any of your facts, only your conclusions.

Here is how I will end this:

I have presented facts that are verifiable. You have presented crap. As I disprove your statements and the sources that you use, you ask more questions. In fact, the only area that matters in this conversation is Hampton Roads because that is where we all live and pay taxes(except me I'm 4 miles away). You can go to vbgov.com and do a search for 'tax rate' and it will answer all of your questions. It posts all the cities of Hampton Roads. It's you who needs to do some reading my friend.

Your arguments are nonsense. Sales tax? Who cares? Quite the birdwalker.

I am impressed at the fact that you are easily the first poster I have seen defend the taxes they pay in your area. It takes all types.

"Keith, Gilmore didn't try to eliminate the car tax, he just shifted the payment of it from local to state revenue. If you think that's some sort of heroic tax cut, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Regarding the democrats bankrupting the country, it's interesting to note that the largest budget deficits in our nation's history by far have come from the republican presidents, frequently with a republican congress. Republican voters are waaaay too easy on their elected republican officials."
Point taken Jim, about the republicans in federal office. In my view they don't stand for nothing anymore. However, I feel that democrats stand for less than nothing. Both parties are two wings on the same bird. As for Gilmore, he did try to eliminate the tax. ALL taxes are a shell game. That's how you win votes. Democrats tax the rich more and win votes and republicans tax everybody except the rich and win votes. Federal grants given to states still come from the same source...US. Also one dollar doesn't spend equally from state to state.

"...Yes you can. What's your tax rate? I'll help you. What city are you in? In VB the new lower tax rate is .89 and mine is .32 VB's is the lowest and it was 1.22. I know what the state rates are by percentage as I pay in both NC and VA. Are you saying mathmatics are ineffective?...."

OK, that's a good start. Now list the real property tax rate for every locality in VA and NC. Got that? OK, now list personal property rates for every locality in VA and NC. When you're done with that, list every other local tax imposed by every locality in VA and NC. After finishing that, list the state income tax rates, sales tax rates and every other state tax imposed by VA and NC. You're almost done - now list the total revenue raised by all localities and the 2 states from all these taxes. Finally, determine what the total income is of all residents of both states and calculate what percent of the total income goes toward the previously calculated state and local taxes. Now, compare the 2 states and let me know what you find. Or, you could just go to Tax Foundation dot org. They've already calculated all that stuff for all 50 states.

"Taxes
Submitted by Jim Dillon on Thu, 06/12/2008 at 1:22 pm.
Ira, you can't compare the TOTAL state AND local tax burden by looking at what ONE person pays for property tax in ONE locality. Surely you can see that."

Yes you can. What's your tax rate? I'll help you. What city are you in? In VB the new lower tax rate is .89 and mine is .32 VB's is the lowest and it was 1.22. I know what the state rates are by percentage as I pay in both NC and VA. Are you saying mathmatics are ineffective? The only way you pay less taxes than me is if you use a home with a lower value. Keep kidding yourself.

Ira, you can't compare the TOTAL state AND local tax burden by looking at what ONE person pays for property tax in ONE locality. Surely you can see that.

Paul, I respect your opinion that you're over-taxed and/or that your locality doesn't give you quality services. Some localities do a better job than others, no doubt. Also, as I said earlier, it's not possible for every person to agree on what level of services a state or locality ought to provide. Higher taxes don't necessarily correlate to better services, which is one reason why I wouldn't want to live in a high tax state. Like I said, I think VA has it just about right - below average taxes and better than average services and quality of life.

When Gilmore offered to eliminate the car tax, he had no idea what he was talking about. That was a huge amount of money that some worthwhile programs depended on. You can't lose that amount of money without having something to replace it with. Don't believe any candidate who says he can cut taxes. It can't be done without major repercussions. The best that anyone can do is to not raise them. But that can't be done indefinitely.

Is he the best Virginia Rep's can offer the voters? If so Warner is a shoe in----expect the mud to fly with G in the race.

...is that we shouldn't have to be paying more in taxes everytime a Liberal is elected as governor. The firefighter and police departments are really the only public servants who deserve better working conditions and pay. Not the teachers. I don't care about other states! I live and am raising my two elementary age children here in Norfolk. I care what happens here. The more money out of OUR pockets equates to less money in OUR economy which equates to fewer profitable companies, fewer employers/employees, fewer paychecks and fewer spenders and less disposable income. Oh yeah check out New Yorks tax rates...they are among the highest in the country. Does that mean they have all the best services? Norfolk sure isn't using it's reimbursed funds to improve our roads. Everyone benefits from the car tax reduction who owns a car. Kaine just tried to get more out of us at the DMV. See? More, more and more.

You need to put away your list, it's incorrect. My tax rate is .32

Now what is yours?

"they don't simply ask one or two people what they pay in property taxes. That wouldn't be a very accurate or comprehensive survey, would it?"

Regardless of what they do or don't do, they did it incorrectly. My property in another state you names is valued at 74K and I am taxed right over $200.00. Your numbers are not even remotely correct. However, your state income taxes are about 25% lower than mine but it doesn't really add up to anything. Did I mention that my car taxes are about the same as yours? Even commercial rated which in Va receives no "relief?"

Submitted by georges61555 on Wed, 06/11/2008 at 8:32 am.

"A hundred years from now people will still be blaming former President Clinton. Each president or any elected position is responsible for his/her own action during his/her own term."

While that is ideally true, there are things that happen (or don't happen) in one president's/elected official's term that can directly impact decisions made by the newly elected officials. I'd go so far as to say that party leaders do this and have done this for years, just to retaliate against the other party or to keep their names off the people's $#!t list, but somehow we the people always end up paying the price.

Regarding the car tax - yes, our personal property tax bill shows that we are getting a break on our car tax. My point was that while the localities are giving you a break on your tax bill, they're being reimbursed by the state for the lost revenue. What is the state using to reimburse the localities? Our tax dollars. We're paying the state extra income tax so that we can get a break on our car tax. It's little more that a tax burden redistribution scheme. I'm not impressed. The winners of this tax shell game are those who drive expensive cars and live in localities with a high personal property tax rate - mostly Northern VA. The losers are people who earn income and don't drive or drive inexpensive cars.

Ira, those aren't my numbers, they're the numbers of various tax organizations (usually anti-tax groups) who factor in all state and local taxes - they don't simply ask one or two people what they pay in property taxes. That wouldn't be a very accurate or comprehensive survey, would it?

Paul, we could be lower on the list, but with fewer or worse govt services. It's a balancing act I guess, and the tax rate/level of services will never be at a level that satisfies everyone. Personally, I think VA and its localities have it just about right. On the whole, VA and its localities currently have below average taxes compared to other states (according to unbiased tax research organizations) and, in my opinion, offer better than average services and quality of life. So, to answer your question, we could have the lowest state and local taxes in the country, but would also likely have among the worst public schools, libraries, courts, law enforcement, universities, roads, etc., in the country. If you're OK with that, fine, but I think you're in the minority.

Your wrong. My tax rate at the local level in NC is about 1/3 of yours in VA BCH and that is one of the lowest in your region. I also own property in another state you cited and that is incorrect as well. Your numbers are bogus.

"The same morons who vote for Warner will vote for Obama, because its the cool thing to do."

I voted for Warner while in VA and will not vote for Obama here in NC. Regardless of who his running mate is.

"It's Bill Clinton's fault for not letting us drill our own oil. Its the Obama supporters in this country driving their Prius around and complaining about how "the war is the problem." Nope sorry, you comunist hollywood liberals are the reason gas is high. Gilmore for Senate. His slogan should be, "Stop Whining You Dumb Liberal."

That's going to be really hard to fit on a bumper sticker. I suggest you shorten it to "I am an easily led idiot."

And for the record, drilling for oil would do very little, if anything, for gas prices as we do not have the refinery capacity. Refinery capacity, for the record, is not something one can blame on democrats, as oil companies are the ones who shut down refineries and have been on the record for a long time asserting that no new refineries are needed. We can get the oil, but we would be unable to convert it to gasoline. People really need to stop getting their information from ill-informed radio talking heads. Could somebody also tell me how Warner fits in with drilling in ANWR?

Yes, I think William is correct. The problem is, Gilmore knows that the only way he can win is to throw mud and attack as ferociously as possible, so it will not be an enlightened campaign at all, which is something we citizens deserve. The real question is why the republicans would nominate an ideologue, a person on the extreme end of the party, but one who is anathema to those libertarians/envangelicals in the party who most likely will just sit this out. If he can't count on them, and he can't count on the moderate, business oriented, main street republicans (see Tom Davis' comments today), who can he count on? And knowing that, is the party becoming self destructive, making ideological purity a entry test and turning away from the responsibility to govern if you win, prefering to stew over social issues most Virginians do not even consider to be within the province of government? I guess we shall see.

A hundred years from now people will still be blaming former President Clinton. Each president or any elected position is responsible for his/her own action during his/her own term.

Gilmore is simply Roadkill in this race. He failed as the Gov, party chairman and now as a Senate candidate. You would think he would get the message by now...

...do you support us being higher up or lower down on that list? Warner/Kaine have seen to it that we aren't lower on that list. Why can't we have the lowest per capita tax rate? Oh by the way Gilmore did set up a staged process for eliminating the tax and if you read your tax bill you got recently it shows the dollar amount of relief you benefitted. Uhm...why haven't Warner/Kaine completely eliminated it? So can you tell me why it's better for me or you or anyone else in Virginia to have less money in our pockets? You probably can't or won't have an answer to that question. I asked Keithb.. that question on numerous occasions and he refused to answer. Will you?

Keith, Gilmore didn't try to eliminate the car tax, he just shifted the payment of it from local to state revenue. If you think that's some sort of heroic tax cut, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Regarding the democrats bankrupting the country, it's interesting to note that the largest budget deficits in our nation's history by far have come from the republican presidents, frequently with a republican congress. Republican voters are waaaay too easy on their elected republican officials.

C.B., nope. I'm talking about state and local tax burden. Check out the annual (I think) Tax Foundation study. VA is lower than N.C., S.C., GA, KY, MD and W. VA.

He was a lame duck governor...what makes him think he's wanted in the Senate? Wasn't he fired from his position as party chairman?

Clinton "rode" the wave.

Actually Michelle, the president doesn't have much control over the economy which in turn feeds the budget but if you would like to compliment a president for putting that into place, perhaps Bush 1 would be a better choice. Clinton simply road the wave, did nothing and watched the recession come. Good politics actually when you leave the next guy to pick up the pieces. Jim, every study I have seen that places virginia that low only compares state taxes and doesn't take into account local tax burden or total tax burden. Heck look south to Dare county that grappled over raising real estate tax to what, about 30 cents per 100? Tennessee doesn't even have an income tax.

Can anyone tell us were Mark Warner’s big tax surplus he left for Little Timmy Kaine is? Warner like Kaine is a tax and spend liberal trying out for the dummycratVP spot.

Again, Mike Barrett plays the shame game on Virginia citizens by bringing up the useless statistics of what taxes Virginia pays in comparison to other states. We pay less than the national average, so we should be ashamed and pony up because other states have to. Word for word as Gov. Kaine at the town meeting in Virginia Beach. Again it is totally irrelevant. Nobody cares. One fact is that Jim Gilmore saw the personal property tax as the farce that is actually is and tried to do something about it. It's a shame he didn't totally succeed. As long as we keep electing democrats, we'll all end up bankrupt.

The same morons who vote for Warner will vote for Obama, because its the cool thing to do. They don't understand that Democrats like Warner think everyone who brings home a paycheck is rich. When they raise taxes on "the rich" it means everyone who pays taxes, because POOR PEOPLE DON'T PAY TAXES!!!! Except on gas which is not the oil companies fault the price is so high. It's Bill Clinton's fault for not letting us drill our own oil. Its the Obama supporters in this country driving their Prius around and complaining about how "the war is the problem." Nope sorry, you comunist hollywood liberals are the reason gas is high. Gilmore for Senate. His slogan should be, "Stop Whining You Dumb Liberal."

C.B., every study I've seen disagrees with you. State and local tax burden as a percent of per capita income usually puts VA around 35th. Federal taxes are the biggest culprit when it comes to high taxes, in my opinion.

My bad. Thanks for setting me straight CB. I meant to say Clinton left us with a balanced budget. Regarding the deficit, however, it was at an all-time low when he left office. And still far from being wiped out.

Man, CB, I laughed my head off when I read your response then reread mine.

The car tax thing was nothing but a shell game. He didn't eliminate a tax, he merely shifted the payment of a local tax to payment from state collected revenue. In other words, he used state income tax revenue (paid by us) to compensate localities for the car tax revenue they would have lost had he actually cut the car tax. It was nothing but a shell game that was destined to collapse when his unrealistic revenue projections proved false. Using false car tax reimbursement numbers and false revenue projections to give the appearance of a tax cut and a balanced budget is NOT fiscal conservatism.