Norfolk unveils plans to reshape area east of downtown

trying to out do the Jone's or to impress someone. The middle class of today, may need rental assistance tomorrow. Don't think this can't happen to YOU, because it so easily can.

The whole "let them earn a living" is the primary problem with the equation. Well over half of available jobs in this area do not pay a living wage. A further influx of people not in the work force needing jobs would drive the wages for many of these jobs down even lower. Training and education are not the answer when there is little to no demand in the area for a highly skilled or educated workforce. Just to use me as an example, I can make atleast 25% more doing what Im doing now in almost every city with Virginia Beach's population or more, and in most of those areas, the cost of living, especially housing, is far lower. Why is this? Because at any given time there are less then 10 jobs available in the field I work in and zero in the field my degree is in. What do I do you say? Im an accountant....something that has a huge demand in real cities, but almost none here.

I am just amazed at the comments on here! The comment by introspective saying, "it is the low income people who spend the most money"....what was that person thinking!? I don't believe that for a minute and if they were spending more than a middle class person, do you think it might be because they are not earning it themselves??? Perhaps if we looked at our youth and schools we might begin to understand why our society is turning out the way it is. No respect for anything or anyone leads to crime and encourages the welfare system. Make people accountable and let them earn a living by doing something besides holding their hand out and teaching the next generation that it is ok!

1. Yes Silc, I know those collecting off the government arent put to work, however, that could be changed easily. There is always road projects, lawn and facility maintenance, child care, etc etc that needs to be done that the cities spend millions upon millions of dollars on private contractors to do, when they have a labor pool handy, that they are already paying. I am not for free money at all, however, I do not support the capitalist way of letting the rich get richer, and everyone else can die.

2. Slave labor is labor which is forced from someone without their agreement to the terms and under duress. By completely erasing social programs, you will be forcing people through economic duress to work at jobs which do not pay them enough to maintain even a meager existance. The only people who will profit are the local 7 Eleven owners, who will be able to lower their wages due to the influx of applicants who need a job (this is a concept Steve cannot comprehend).

1. The definition of a prevailing wage is simply the wage being paid a particuliar function on average. It does not have to be used in the function or context of a labor unions prevailing wage. Just simply google the term, and youll see dozens of references of the term to non union applications.

2. Wow, as far as "Hispanics prospering", I assume you are refering to the illegal variety, and I can assure you I can present you with far more cases of 10 families living in a single family shack with one toilet and no insurance, then the guy driving a shiny new Honda and sending money back. You cannot live on $5.75 an hour in Hampton Roads, period. The only way you exist is living with several other wage earners, in substandard housing.

I took no less then 10 economics courses in college, and I have two associates degrees and a bachelors degree in finance hanging on my wall. Assumptions are the candy of the ignorant and illogical.

You obviously did not take economics in college (if you even went).
One question for you, have you ever worked for a poor person? Norfolk does need to expand because they know if they do not, VA Beach will.

Ditto this:Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ooooohhhhh ohhhhhhh it hurts....ha ha ha ha ha ha

On the response for low income supporting middle and upper...geezes, and just where does their money come from to support the middle income group of people? Toooo funny....if it weren't so sad..for the taxpayers!

Norfolk..go ahead...build them low income cities and pay the welfare recipients tens of thousands of dollars to make the move to their new comfy homes that even a taxpayer is struggling to do...lets hear it for Norfolk and more freebies to the ones that feel it is their right to live off you and me...forever!

Prevailing wages are based upon local union rates. Purpose of Davis Bacon was to protect union members from having non-union contractors undercut bids by using cheaper labor.

I'm quitting my job tomorrow so I can start spending more money.

Is the Socialist Republic of Norfolk going into the housing business? Who is going to be building and selling or renting the homes intended to be sold and rented? The city? And what sort of moron is going to buy a place mixed in with public housing?? Yeah right.

Living wage vs "prevailing wage"? Do you have any idea what the term prevailing wage even means? What does Davis Bacon have to do with this discussion?? There is no such thing as a general "prevailing wage". Gov posts prevailing wages for various crafts in various locales for use in bidding on Davis Bacon jobs. Whatever dude. Working will drive people into poverty?? Gee, the Hispanics are thriving off of the work our section 8'ers won't touch. I know several driving newer vehicles, sending money home, and several who have moved on to start their own businesses. Work does wonders.

Low income people spend the most?? Prop up the middle class?? Wealthy don't pay because they get "incentives"??? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ooooohhhhh ohhhhhhh it hurts....ha ha ha ha ha ha

What is simply the highest and best use of this property, NOT PUBLIC HOUSING! Nothing against public housing, save that for a seperate debate, but the truth is that the city owns most of this area. And public housing is not in the best interest of the future growth of downtown, which is inevitable as this area grows, and yes downtown will be more attractive as gas prices level off at 5$/gallon. Ask yourself...what is the highest and best use of this land??? really?

City officials must be raking it in under the table or elsewhere to keep backing this development downtown. Rich investors will take our money and then split with the cash leaving the residents with a rundown city we can’t afford to live in because property taxes will be so high. And what about the poor black people who live over there? I guess we’re going to just keep pushing them out until they have nowhere to live? I’d think Riddick would be up in arms over that! And forget Wards Corner and the rest of the city! Just drive around Norfolk for a few hours one day and it will hit you what a dump this town is becoming. It is so sad to see how the people are being manipulated by our “leaders”. We might as well forget the courthouse albatross - we’ll be such a depressed, crime-ridden city it won’t matter what happens there anymore.

Might need housing assistance tomorrow!

I see the Socialist/Communists are alive and well and hanging out on Prada Online:

"CoolCommie" writes:

It is not simply a matter of just "working". The living wage for this area is far higher then the prevailing wage. By forcing people in to the workforce, you will do two things.

1. Create more people in poverty. Many people take advantage of social programs because that is the only way they can maintain a standard of living all Americans should enjoy as measured by the wealth of this country. By working jobs they qualify for, they would, nine times out of ten, watch their standard of living fall, and this often would mean starvation and homelessness.

First off, fergus is totally correct. There were many middle and low income people back in the 60's that lived in that area of Ghent from Llewellyn to Colonial and from Olney to Shirley and The City force them all out to make way for "affordable, middle-class housing". Of course that's not what ended up being built is it? What a joke.

Let's be totally real here kids: There are well-to-do folks living across from this new-fancy-named area 'St Paul's Quad'. Even sounds rich doesn't it?
And they don't want to look out of their well-appointed squeaky clean windows at where all the po'folks are living so we're just gonna move all the po'folks
somewhere else...just like before.
Last time they moved them all to Portsmouth.
I wonder where they will bus them to this time?

The growing economies of China are thanks to everyone who buys,"Made in China".

Many of these comments are attacking low income people and their living situations instead of the issues at hand. If you do not wish for the City of Norfolk to rebuild public housing then say just that...everything else is a waste of time and meaningless words. I do not judge because you never know what may happen to place you in a situation where you may need a handout. Don't get me wrong, I understand that there are people who milk the system and I feel there should be a way to weed them out but I do not feel that all low income people should be treated the same.

It's funny how the middle class and wealthy hate low income people but fail to realize that it is the low income people who spend the most money. The middle class is struggling to save for their retirement and the wealthy don't really pay for anything because it is a pleasure for the wealthy to grace a lot of businesses establishment and they get a lot of incentives. In fact, the low income keep a lot of middle class people (businesses) from going under. Remember, it is always more than one way to look at things.

A 19th century author suggested in a satire that the poor children of London be eaten by the wealthier people so as to solve the poverty problem...
Who lives in "public housing"? Well....people...Some are young mothers without husbands...and if you have 3 children how are you going to afford to pay for their childcare, work outside the home and your rent? Some people are physically and mentally challenged...so you cannot walk or see or maybe need competent supervision to manage your life...maybe you are just wasting away because of a chronic disease like diabetes, AIDs or whatever else...Maybe we can solve this problem by eating them....?
There is a valid point to start focusing on downtown/city dwellings again as gas prices start to drive the suburbanites into the cities to changing the lifestyle of the USA back to where it started before the Eisenhower freeway system was enacted. Oil futures are bid for in a daily world auction. As the various countries needs for oil increase they bid until they get what they need for their supplies. The growing economies of China and other 3rd world countries demand more fuel. Our economy as it grows demands more fuel. It is not only

"Coolguy says:Now, I do support those on welfare being forced into government work projects in exchange for the money, but I do not support corporate America profiting from a forced slave class."

Realistically there is no such thing as government work projuects per se for the welfare recipient which only leaves free room, board and medical on the taxpayers dollar..I would rather see them working for their money...THAT is NOT slave labor, it's called reality..if you choose to have 5 kids by the time your 21, then decide you want to be supported by the taxpayer, just what is THAT called then?

Just curious on this answer..since you feel working for minimum wage is slave labor...I see it as a step off my dime and becoming responsible for yourself..

I'm fed up with public housing and all the problems these folks cause in our city. The worst point is instead of using public housing as a stepping stone to a better life, most stay put and pump out more fatherless babies. It's the cold truth, cut them off for their own good. I'm sick of having all these hands in my pocket reaching for my hard earned cash! At least put a limit of say 2 years or 3 new kids.

And just who was calling?

I've given up on trying to make sense out of the City of Norfolk's planning. It's like they took out a dart board of the city and started tossing darts at it. If a dart falls out (like say one for the Ward's Corner area), the area gets dropped from planning and funding. I guess if you don't live right downtown these days, you're just flat out of luck: no one in the city council is going to listen or take you seriously. I'd say I'm glad I don't live in Norfolk anymore, but with how Meyera and company constantly bow to developers, the people in Virginia Beach are going to be in the same shape if not worse soon enough.

It is not simply a matter of just "working". The living wage for this area is far higher then the prevailing wage. By forcing people in to the workforce, you will do two things.

1. Create more people in poverty. Many people take advantage of social programs because that is the only way they can maintain a standard of living all Americans should enjoy as measured by the wealth of this country. By working jobs they qualify for, they would, nine times out of ten, watch their standard of living fall, and this often would mean starvation and homelessness. Now, I do support those on welfare being forced into government work projects in exchange for the money, but I do not support corporate America profiting from a forced slave class.

2. Flooding the workforce would drag the prevailing wage of low to mid jobs down even further. Most economomist would agree that there is an equilibrium number in the workforce that keeps jobs available and wages rising. If you disrupt that number with more people in the workforce, it will plummet prevailing wages in the positions those said people are qualified for, especially assuming stagnant natural job growth in the particuliar sector.

Academy Park in Portsmouth razed thier homes that held low income housing..the cost to the taxpayers was enormous..

I was dumbfounded when I found out how much moving costs they gave each and everyone of these welfare recipients for moving...the least amount was $15,000 per household of 2 and it went up from there..

Yes, we pay for them to live free, and then pay to move them...a price that is over the top..many of us hardworking tax payers have never even seen that much money much less are able to save it but let the cities do what they like to get what they want and once again..you get to foot the bill..OUTRAGEOUS!

I was recently at a meeting where a couple City Council members were in attendance. During their presentation, they waxed poetic about the plans for Norfolk; growth, new business, more residential development, mass transit improvement, light rail, etc..etc..

When asked what was being done for the residents to address the high tax burden and the problems residents are facing right now with transportation, both speakers acknowledged there was a problem that needed to be addressed, blah blah blah. There was not ONE mention of a plan for our current challenges!

The overdevelopment of high density housing in Norfolk is stretching available infrastructure resources such as transportation and law enforcement - but out elected officials appear to be too concerned with the future to worry about the present.

Doesn't there come a time when we say no more to welfare, to public housing and to all those capable people who choose to not work but stand on the corners, etc.?? Unless you are diagnosed with a physical or mental disability by a qualified doctor, the public aid should flat out stop! After a child/teen/woman has one child on welfare, she should NOT be allowed to collect anymore. Put her out to work like the rest of us and have her child go to a daycare. Our system has created this monster called HANDOUTS! I resent the heck out of people who do not do for themselves. Lets help the people who are really needy, sick and helpless. If nothing else, let all these takers be required to volunteer for the city in order to receive my hard earned money!

Public housing is too convenient and comfortable. Public housing should consist of shared living spaces with limited privacy to encourage people to find something better. I remember reading a previous article about the redevelopment of the St. Paul's Quadrant that mentioned an individual that has lived in Tidewater Gardens for over 30 years. Where is the initiative to stop living off of the taxpayers backs? Norfolk should have no obligation to replace this public housing. I would extend downtown's block layout to the area and sell off parcels to developers with no subsidies.

Hire an expensive consulting firm, conduct a study of the demographics, design a glitzy plan with a reknown architect, throw in the word "stakeholders', have endless meetings making the community members feel they are a part of the plan, create impressive Power Point presentations depicting the proposed desired outcome and make a glossy booklet of the plan. What happens next? In Portsmouth, anyway, the plan/Power Point presentation/booklet is shelved and never revisited. The citizenry is briefly silenced because they were made to feel they've had a "voice" in planning and the city's development continues to occur ONLY in Olde Towne. What happens next? Public housing is demolished and its residents are relocated to the part of the city previously studied by the consultant for said "glitzy plan".

I have been inside of many of these units that are public housing. If you look, they are not that bad. Most have a townhome set up that is usually bricked. They have a small porch and are gated communities with open areas. Many of Norfolks have beautiful mature trees. When I was younger, I thought I would not mind living in such a place. In fact, I was renting a place that was not as nice in my opinion and of course I had to PAY for it.

So those of you who support public housing; could you tell me what the problem is in these projects? Would it be fair to say it is the residents? Boot them and rebuild.

Think johnbo will call me a liberal with this one(snicker)?

Why don't we go into a really poor neighborhood and build some houses that are really expensive and then go in to a really nice neighborhood and build some houses that are really
cheap.