NORFOLK
The City Council told City Manager Regina V.K. Williams on Tuesday to go ahead with plans to spend more than $100 million on a new courthouse complex.
Judges had threatened to force the city to build a new courthouse, especially if the oft-delayed project is delayed again.
Williams said the council's assent means that within days she will award a $12 million contract to design the courthouse. That will push the project to the point of no return, she said.
"We're not going to do this, and then let it sit on a shelf," she said.
The design should take a year. Work on the first phase of the project is expected to begin in September 2009.
The new courthouse complex will house the Circuit, General District, and Juvenile and Domestic Relations courts. All are in separate buildings at least four decades old. Judges and attorneys have complained that they are so antiquated that they are unsafe.
The council informally approved the new courthouse despite worries about the stress it will put on future budgets. Since it was proposed five years ago, the courthouse project has doubled in estimated cost, from $54 million to more than $108 million.
Assistant City Manager Stanley A. Stein said that estimate is based on a 2004 study and the true cost won't be known until the spring.
The city is scheduled to borrow $40 million in the next fiscal year, which begins in July 2009, and $20 million in each of the next two years for the project. The council authorized borrowing $29 million in previous years.
Portsmouth reacted to the economic turndown by considering proposals to renovate the current Circuit courthouse and relocating court operations to an existing building outside downtown.
Councilman W. Randy Wright mentioned Portsmouth's actions in pleading for the council to take another look at how to reduce the cost of the project.
"I just want to make sure we're providing something that's reasonable," he said. "This is the most expensive project the city has ever undertaken."
But his pleas drew no support from the other five council members in attendance.
Stein told the council that four studies have been done to determine what is needed in a courthouse complex, and that some items were eliminated to reduce costs. The last study recommended a building of 343,000 square feet. Stein said that was reduced to 306,000 square feet.
Costs were also reduced because of a suggestion from Councilman Don Williams that instead of an 11-story building, the project be done in two smaller stages.
The second phase of the project is scheduled to begin in 2011 and be completed in 2013, Stein said.
The courthouse complex would sit on St. Paul's Boulevard, partially on the site of the existing General District Court adjacent to the City Jail and a light rail stop.
Harry Minium, (757) 446-2371, harry.minium@pilotonline.com
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Response
"In a day when property values are falling, the prices of basic necessities are rising and consumers are inevitably going to be tightening belts and purchasing less...city revenues (which primarily come from property and sales taxes) are inevitably going to suffer. Is this the time to be considering expenditures of this nature and scope? I think not. I'd be willing to bet there are less expensive solutions than razing the whole complex and starting over."
1)This is a very short-sighted view and completely ignores long term economic goals. By the time the complex is complete in 2012 or 2013 the US economy will be completely different.
2)You may be willing to bet their are less expensive solutions to starting from scratch. Are you sure about that? The cost or remodeling Blair Middle School far outweighed the costs if they had just built a new building.
“I don't think we attempt to preserve anything that has any history in this city. Look at the other historic buildings that have been torn down for one reason or another. It's always easier to spend big money to put up something new and shiny...what happened to keeping and maintaining what was built to last a long time. The
House Analogy
Sailorcurt, in order for your house analogy to be accurate your home, which was probably designed to house 5 people, should now have about 15-20 people living in it. Is this the case? Also, do you have hundreds of people going thru your house every day? If both of these were true, I seriously doubt it would be perfectly safe, comfortable and downright enjoyable to live in. I am not trying to be argumentative, you just need to compare apples to apples. As someone who is in the A/E/C (Architectural/Engineering/Construction) industry, it is often more expensive to renovate an existing facility, especially one that you can not close to the public during the construction work.
Good catch Brian
"That is some interesting math Sailorcurt. "
I think I may have forgotten some zeros when punching the numbers into my calculator. Perhaps I need to revisit some basic math skills?
In any case, my basic point still stands...
In a day when property values are falling, the prices of basic necessities are rising and consumers are inevitably going to be tightening belts and purchasing less...city revenues (which primarily come from property and sales taxes) are inevitably going to suffer. Is this the time to be considering expenditures of this nature and scope? I think not. I'd be willing to bet there are less expensive solutions than razing the whole complex and starting over.
In my opinion...and my concerns...are they yours, too?
I don't think we attempt to preserve anything that has any history in this city. Look at the other historic buildings that have been torn down for one reason or another. It's always easier to spend big money to put up something new and shiny...what happened to keeping and maintaining what was built to last a long time. The architects and builders that designed and built the current Circuit Court, General District and Juvenile Court buildings designed and built those buildings hoping they would serve our city for a long time into our futures. The fine woods and the beauty of the court rooms need maintenance and improvements/upgrades, not destruction.
It's inevitable...new construction...new real estate tax rates. The city will always find excuses not to reduce the rate...but seldom a reason to provide us with better services.
I also have a question. How safe is it going to be to have all three courts in one building? I'm not sure I would want children/young people having to deal with issues of the Juvenile Court system being exposed to some of the things that can happen in Circuit Court sessions. And what about the transportation of inmates from the jail? How is that
We are fools
Apparently the Majority in the city of Norfolk are fools and the fools that dictate to those pawns know it. They just elected two of these idiots a few months ago and sent the message loud and clear to the council that they can do anything they want. Until the lazy and the crazy get up and vote every last one of these power hungry leftist out off office you will get exactly what you deserve.
Unsafe Courthouse
Actually the courthouses are not safe due to the design. In family court, which handles domestic violence, often times the families are packed into one small room for hours. Fights are common place and it is dangerous for everyone. Anyone who has spent any amount of time in the buildings can attest to the horrid conditions.
The public defenders and prosecutors who serve in these courts perform a public service for much less compensation than they could make in private practice. It is not too much to ask for a public court house that provides a clean and safe environment.
Argue about the cost all you want, but the City needs a new courthouse. Those who think otherwise I'm sure believe that Virginia has no transportation problems and that infrastructure is cheaper if you just prolong the investment. Thankfully our public officials are a hair smarter than that.
Just where
Just where does all the money come from? I hope everyone is writing our Mayor and Councul Members about this huge mistake. I agree, $12 million for a plan????? Do we really look like a bunch of fools?
Parking
I certainly hope they deal with the parking situation. When people are coming off of I-264 W on Waterside Dr and try parking in the City's Parking lot it creates traffic that backs up onto the interstate and is a serious hazard.
There's no reason for this courthouse!
There's no reason for a new courthouse! The old one is empty every time I've ever been there, and 12 million just to come up with the plans? What kind of BS is that? This is another colossal waste of taxpayer money--of course since 'they don't really know the actual cost' that leaves their ability to collect bribes and kickbacks wide open. Cost overruns have a bad habit of going to the wrong people--usually the people who approve the project.
Four Decades Old
One more point: The home I live in was built in 1956. Basic math tells me that it is over FIVE decades old.
Yet my home is still perfectly safe, comfortable and downright enjoyable to live in. Why would that be?
Because I TAKE CARE OF IT. As have the past owners. When something breaks, I fix it. When something needs upgraded or improved, I upgrade or improve it.
That concept may be a novel idea to our employees in city government but it seems to work fine for the myriads of their employers who don't have the option of taking hard earned money out of other's pockets under threat of violence in order to fund our pipe dreams.
"taking care of what you've got"
Nofolk doesn't have a clue what that means and as long as we keep re-electing them the sitution will never get any better, and that includes the wannabe Mayor Randy Wright. I've said it so many times, our City Council and Mayor do not have the educational background, intellect, or general knowhow to goveren a growing city like Norfolk. And that goes for our City Manage also.
Interesting Math
That is some interesting math Sailorcurt. $12M divided by 250,000 (Approximate population of Norfolk) yields $48. I sure hope residents of Norfolk make more than that in one day, yet alone in a year. I think even military people make more than that. $12M design fee for a $108M project is actually pretty standard for a project of this complexity. It is only a 11% fee.
What does it say about a community that....
What does it say about a community that spends more on the criminal system than the education system?
Crybabies!
Looks like the crybaby judges are going to get their way. You can bet your home that this courthouse will far exceed the projected costs.
Looks like the taxpayers in Norfolk are about to get bamboozled.
Randy Wright appears to be the only voice of wisdom in this process.
Construction expert/judge
Judges and lawyers are now construction experts? What qualifies them to decide that a building is unsafe? I didn't know they taught that at law school. How about hiring experts to study some alternatives before spending more than the entire population of Norfolk combined earns in a year just to DESIGN the new structures?
The courthouse in my hometown in Indiana is over 200 years old. They're still using it and it's in great shape. How about taking care of what you've got rather than spending our money in these hard economic times on indulgences.