'Grammar vigilantes' fined for fixing sign at Grand Canyon

From the time I was in First Grade through my first stint in Collage I was taught that you used commas for lists like this:

I bought Apples, Grapes, and Pears.

However; I enrolled for a BS in Computer Business Info Systems and had to take another English Course. In this course we were taught that the following was okay:

I bought Apples, Grapes and Pears.

Now this little change in proper grammar happened over the last 10 years. But the funny thing is if you go by the doctrine that The first is correct then the second means you bought a Fruit called Grapes and Pears.

So grammar changes, just like language.

Just yesterday you libeled me.
Don't be so thin skinned.
You could use a sense of humor too?

IRA
Submitted by George K on Sat, 08/23/2008 at 5:13 pm.
It was a joke, stupid.

Luckily we were not face to face. There doesn't seem to be much room for a difference in opinion in your world. I'll admit, I let asner's outlandish and incorrect postings bother me, but easy on the senseless bashing. It certainly will not change my view.

The tone of Twain's writings require such grammar. He is a national treasure.

Oh, yeah, those guys were bad boys to deface that 70-year-old sign--no disagreement here.

I love the Mitford Series of novels by Jan Karon, in which much of her writing is conversational, in North Carolina mountain dialect. That is how the flavor of a culture is conveyed, IMHO, by using quotation marks. People who have grammar backgrounds expect things that are not quoted to be grammatically correct, at least for the era in which they were written. But we as a nation are not terrifically strong on writing right now either. So many college kids can make a wonderful video presentation but not write a good paper. Cheers, MGM

From writing video scripts for years, one of the things I have learned is that people don't typically speak in grammatically correct sentences. That, and taking into account dialects and regional nuances, using correct grammar all the time can completely remove the correct flavor of what a writer is trying to express. Often, the people that wrote historical notes or accounts didn't have the education people have now. To correct their grammar destroys their writing and the sense of the time. These are not excuses for bad grammar but solid reasons for the fact that there are situations where it is necessary and understandable to skip it.

Have you heard the one about the best writers breaking grammatical rules but breaking them in the *wink, wink* way that shows that they actually knew them first??? Grammarians *love* Mark Twain. Pls, pls put me in a quiet place (not jail--I haven't defaced any signs, hee hee!) and let me read Mark Twain as I go through chemotherapy right now!!! Cheers, and thanks for the reading suggestion, MGM

People should be taught good grammar, yes, BUT messing with historical items? WAAAAYYY out of line! Heaven knows what they would do with Mark Twain's 'Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.' Books that use authentic lingo such as that must drive people like this crazy. Now there would be a great sentence for these guys: stick them in jail with nothing but books like 'Huckleberry Finn' that are loaded with bad grammar - and make certain they don't have any writing instruments at all.

Please don't let a naysayer bother you. I'll bet most people understood your phraseology perfectly -- nothing "ironic" about it. No one could have made your point more succinctly than you did.

You're so right that punctuation and spelling can affect meaning, sometimes drastically, even libelously. But there'll always be some who take pride in scoffing at "grammar police" because then, when they write badly, they can rationalize it by saying, "Who cares?" The problem? Nobody understood what they were trying to say.

It was a joke, stupid.

Editor's note: More details on the corrections made, as well as a large photo of the defaced sign, have been added in the story above.

What a Couple of BOZO'S.

Our bridge/tunnel connecting Suffolk to Newport News . Why is it called the Monitor and Merrimac ? They never fired a shot at each other . Now the C.S.S. Virginia gave them 'what for' in the battle of the ironclads . If the Merrimac had sunk the Monitor it would have been treason !
It is a dis-service that VDOT does not represent history with anymore accuracy than that. The Merrimac was burned , sunk , raised and re-built as the Virginia . No longer the Merrimac, and that is a long standing naval tradition , to capture , rename and send back into battle , it sallied forth to do battle as the CSS Virginia .
At the very least the tunnel should be called;
The Monitor - Virginia (ex-Merrimac) Bridge Tunnel

How much trouble would you get into for correcting that sign ?

Am I the only person who believes the story would be much more interesting if the reporter has told us what the sign said - either before or after correction?

"They made history
Submitted by George K on Fri, 08/22/2008 at 6:52 pm.
It aint 'merican if aint been tagged!"

Ah, a proponent of vandalism. Who did you say you support for president again?

LOL!

I'm just guessing that the booking departments of all of the big late night shows are on the phone signing these geeks up. We'll see them on television before the week is out.

Grammar police are annoying, true. But the government wasting money prosecuting someone for correcting a 70 year old hand written sign (who cares) is taking it to another level of lame. It's listed as "irreplaceable"? Just get someone to rewrite it and move on.

An otherwise well-written news article was ruined by the reporter not including the subject of the articale in the text. What word, words, or punctuation specifically did the so-called vandals correct?

I found out by digging deep into the supporting materials provided, but the reporter apparently was too busy to do the same.

One other question - when the government "repaired" the sign, was it restored to the prior, improper usage? Or was it repaired to the correct usage as the TEAL fellows intended?

Either way, my hat's off to both of them!

Actually I applaud these men. I don't feel they were trying to show off their intelligence, but, merely correcting some errors that make information clearer as well as putting Americans in a better light. I often alert folks to spelling or grammar errors on signs or in restaurants and I appreciate it when someone is kind enough to point out my mistakes. English can be a confusing language and common errors such as the use of "there, their and they're" or than vs then are understandable. However, I think most people are thankful for a clear understanding of the correct usage and why. I agree with the previous blogger that the amount to restore the sign is outrageously expensive.

Quote: "Since apostrophes and commas can change meaning, do we really pride ourselves in not knowing how to use them . . . in perhaps not saying to a wide audience, like this forum, the thing we really meant to say?"
What on earth is this question asking?? How ironic.

Mr. Herson and Mr. Deck represent what is best about the American spirit: civil disobedience.

The disparaging comments in this message board, rife with logic and grammar mistakes, prove to me that these guys got it right. Let the haters vent about their myopic view of this country. They simply affirm that the "federal officials", the judge, and the stiffs posting here have a pathetic sense of humor.

The jokes on you, Hampton "Roads".

I agree with you 110% !!!

They have to restore it to the way it looked before these grammar elitists decided to have some fun. So instead of just erasing it they have to work at maintaining the integrity of the sign as it was, not as these clusters decided it should be.

Plus this sign, even with improper punctuation, is apart of Americana. The good, bad, ugly, warts and all Americana that is slipping away from our fingers with each development built and each strip mall that's thrown together. We lose the since of where we came from.

So this sign may be insignificant in the big picture, but it's a historical land mark and not a grammatical landmark. It's something about our past just as every park is, every monument, every battlefield, every place that made us the nation we are today. And this is their shortsightedness shining through...

Grammar police (and I have been one on occasion) often fear that we will lose all public discourse by not being able to write a grammatically correct sentence. Since apostrophes and commas can change meaning, do we really pride ourselves in not knowing how to use them . . . in perhaps not saying to a wide audience, like this forum, the thing we really meant to say? Cheers, MGM

Sounds like some elitist 'intellectuals' are trying to show us how smart they are. "Yes, you're college educated so we get it; you belive you are smart." (Did I punctuate that correctly? Probably not, they'll be coming for me). Perhaps, they could have left a historical sign alone. Who cares if somebody 70 years ago didn't understand grammar as well as they do?

On another disturbing note: Does it really cost the government $3,035 to fix vandalism (error correcting fluid and a marker) to a sign? I'll do it for $20. other warning sign that our government spending is out of control.

Now we know who this forumns grammar police are :)

Just a few years ago, Va Beach Mayor Meyra made Dirty Dicks add an apostrophe to their sign as well. She didn't want to offend all the people visiting and spending their money here.

It aint 'merican if aint been tagged!

Instead of worrying about proper punctuation, how about changing signs that don't reflect the proper language that is used in the United States? That's right, change anything that is written in Spanish back to English. That's a cause I could get behind.

I read, re-read and then read this story again and could not find the particular word or phrase these guys changed. I see a link to the complaint against them, but do you really want to make me go there to find out what your story is all about?
What next? Maybe a beauty pageant story telling us that Miss Virginia Beach has been selected, but not giving her name.

I thought Internet grammar Nazis where bad. This guys take loser to a new level. Sorry dudes, no one is impressed by your grasp of High School English so go do something useful instead.