NORFOLK
Tucked between bustling Virginia Beach Boulevard and the tranquil Elizabeth River, the Ingleside neighborhood has long been unified in defense of its quiet, secluded nature. Now, it's quite literally divided by light rail.
Ingleside will have the only walk-up station along the 7.4-mile, $232.1 million starter rail line that will run through the neighborhood along an abandoned freight rail route.
Reaction there is mixed. At the extremes, some residents are considering moving away from the rail line. Others bought homes to be near the train and are optimistic about saving on gasoline and the convenience of commuting by rail.
No matter which side of the tracks allegiances rest, it's clear changes are coming to Ingleside, a thriving mixed-race, mixed-income area. What's not known to residents is how the once-harmonious neighborhood will change when the rail line opens in early 2010.
"It's going to be this way until the train is running and people are able to see how it's going to work and how it's going to impact them personally," said City Councilwoman Daun S. Hester, who has lived in the
community for more than a dozen years.
Station opponents generally live closer to the corner of Ingleside Road and Mississippi Avenue, where the train will stop. Hampton Roads Transit estimates that 210 people will board daily there. Because the station is intended for residents, no parking will be provided.
Some neighbors are worried about crime, congestion, safety, noise, vagrancy and trash.
"When something is new, you understand the fear," Hester said. "We need to make sure we're listening to concerns and making adjustments as needed."
Opponents charge that's not happening.
"We're absolutely getting stonewalled," longtime resident Kathy Crist said. "If they're not going to take our station off the plan, what are they going to do to make this safe and attractive? We're not getting those answers.
"When you have a quiet, secluded dead-end neighborhood with a train running 18 hours a day, I think it's going to be a strain."
The civic league twice submitted a list of 35 questions to the city and Hampton Roads Transit. Among the concerns: shielding nearby homes from the track and station, providing safe railroad crossings, increasing police presence, traffic and parking. League officers have not been satisfied with the answers.
"We didn't ask for light rail and we can't stop it, so we ought to be allowed some accommodations," said Phillip Hawkins Jr., the civic league president, who lives directly across from the station site.
Longtime residents compare the train with a former bridge on Westminster Avenue that once allowed entry into the back of the neighborhood from Grandy Village and Chesterfield Heights. They said that until the bridge closed about a decade ago, there was more traffic and crime in the neighborhood.
Many residents "view light rail as opening the floodgates again to those kind of opportunities," Hawkins said. "That's the magic of this part of the neighborhood - there's only one way in and one way out now."
Hester said she understands the comparison, which is why it's important for the city to establish safeguards.
City and transit officials have met with residents at least twice in the last several months. Stanley Stein, assistant city manager, said the residents were heard but the city cannot yet address their concerns because detailed design of station areas has not yet begun. "Nothing is on the table or off the table at this point," Stein said.
HRT's current plan has a "basic package" for stations which are "not going to fly for some downtown stations and some others like Ingleside," Stein said. Anything beyond the basic design must be paid for by the city.
HRT spokesman James Toscano said the agency, which is building the light-rail line for the city, is considering some changes. He said it might install surveillance cameras around the stations as well as on trains and might shrink the size of the Ingleside station for neighborhood aesthetics.
"You're never going to have people unanimously in favor of anything," Toscano said. That doesn't mean the project won't benefit many in the neighborhood, he said.
Within the past year or so, a number of Ingleside residents purchased their homes because they want to live within a short walk of the rail station. One of them, Jason Phenicie, said he's "looking forward to being close to this area's only reasonable hope for good mass transit."
"It will be nice not to have to drive everywhere," Phenicie said.
Longtime resident Jimmie Wilson, who served as civic league president for more than a dozen years, said he's eager to ride to avoid traffic, high gas prices and parking problems. "In the long run, light rail is going to help not just this community, but help Norfolk as a whole," Wilson said.
When Wilson was president in 2001, the league voted in favor of the light-rail plan. Five years later, the league voted to oppose the neighborhood station.
Because of the mixed signals, HRT mailed surveys to more than 1,600 Ingleside households two years ago. Sixteen percent, or 258, responded. About 23 percent said they would not ride light rail, while the remainder said they would ride or might ride.
Some residents said the survey was misleading because it never actually asked whether they wanted a neighborhood station.
Hester said the residents opposing the station have been more vocal. "There are many who do want it, but it's not in front of their house," she said.
Stein said the city is considering buying the homes in the same block as the station if the owners want to sell.
Hester said that city officials, after years of delays on the project, were surprised when federal approval and money came through last year. She said as a result, the project has moved uncharacteristically fast and that communication with residents has been lacking. She said she sympathizes with their frustrations.
"The bottom line is the city and HRT need to do what's right for the community," Hawkins said. "If we get the cooperative spirit, I think we'll be fine and light rail will be fine."
Debbie Messina, (757) 446-2588, debbie.messina@pilotonline.com
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Who are you talking too?
"Let me make a prediction that might shake you to the core; the public will see the benefits of alternative energy"
Your brush is too wide. If you find a single post where I deride alternative energy anywhere on this planet I will never psot again. Even remotely as if in I have to expalin myself. Yo uwon't. You should read before you go on the attack. You simply assume people who do not endorse Obama are against Alt energy, the environment, and public transportation. Your wrong. If you look you will know. Standard Obamite ranting.
Democracy
I agree that every issue cannot be put to a vote. Just because some so called "leaders" decide they don't like the answer they recieved from the people, they think they can ignore the voice of people. That is unacceptable. They asked once and got the answer. If they think the people's minds have changed, ask again.
I find it amusing how when one group of people speaks passionatly, openly, factually, and honestly about an issue they are labeled demagogoue and called ignorant citizens. Yet the other side is after "smart alternatives" and "being visionary" and "good for the whole of the region". Honorable concept, not based on facts, but based on studies and guesses.
Ira Tateu,thank you for letting me speak direction to old guard
The issue put forth was a xenophobic fear of urbanization laced with the former supposition that Vb did not want light rail from a vote 10 years ago. Yes, everything is political so I have every believe that the Vb Council checked the compass of their public. Obama was pretty clear that what was actually stated was that speculators would lower the price if there was off-shore drilling, thereby relieving the consumer (Also, noting that fact was this would not result in any oil for 7-10 years.) Far different and as well, has put forth a real plan to put alternative fuel measures at top priority. Lieberman matters not; Jews realize that Bush has been the worst thing for isreal. Let me make a prediction that might shake you to the core; the public will see the benefits of alternative energy because there is a demand and when new jobs are created here at home the vested interest of big oil and the republi
Electoral College
The Founding Fathers established the Electoral College, knowing that demagogues could persuade public opinion to the detriment of society.
The VBTA are exactly the kind of demagogues the Founding Fathers feared.
Aalto
Do you really think that citizens in a representative democracy get to take every issue to a vote? When was the last time we voted on legislation being looked at by the Senate or House up on Capitol Hill? We elect representatives to represent us. If you don't like Mr. Tata, you are free to run against him or vote for someone else who does. Cheers, MGM
asner
South Carolina is a beautiful state. You should be lucky enough to ever live there.
Correct me if I am wrong but Obama did say he would not rule out offshore drilling? I mean after he actually looked at the issue nd understood the political side of it. There is a politcal side to every issue a president must deal with while in office. You cannot simply do it without support. The hold democrats have on the senate and house is fragile if non-existant. How do you think Lieberman will vote when it comes to the war?
Something makes me think that many Obamaites are not the most practical people.
Ignorant Citizens?
The only citizens that are ignorant are the ones that seem to believe this country is a dictatorship and the vote of the people can be ignored at will. 10 years ago or 200 years ago, it does not matter. If politicians want to change what the people voted for, then allow the people the right to speak again. To those that don't believe in the Constution, I hear the Georgia Army needs your assistance. They have a choo-choo you can ride on there.
As for an axe to grind aver HRT? Yes, I do. A totally mismanaged authority that is politically driven and fiscially irresponsible.
do sell
I will buy your house.
breal4real: last comment in regards to your blatent issues
This will be my last comment in regards to your blatant issue with Urbanization. You could move to South Carolina sir. They still fly the confederate flag there, and if you don't want the progression move to where you can have your class system in droves. You can drive everywhere and pollute; be the minority who votes McCain in office and can throw your fishing line off the off shore drilling platform in your mind and convince yourself we still you live in the 50s, and that your motivations are not purely selfish. The rest of us would like smart alternatives that will allow the earth to exist for our children. It was voted down in years past because the issue of transportation was not prevalent; it is now. Whether the cities are corrupt or not and yes, there will be mitigating circumstances to work out but by and large this is where green thinking begins. If you are that concerned for your community w
breal4real
Think about it--people who break into houses don't usually walk, ride bike, or take public transport to get there. Ever see anyone on the D.C. metro carrying multiple DVD players, MP3 players, guns, etc.? They would be a little difficult to conceal.
The bad guys seem to already have their system in place with the cars they own or can borrow.
My only hesitation to getting on the Tide would be late at night when the bars are closing. As I learned in London, public transport is packed then and . . . you don't want to be packed in next to the person who gets sick!!! Cheers, MGM
595
That's the number of parking spaces open to the public. There are 1100 available at Harbor Park, but they are reserved for educational and medical needs only. The buses that will service the stations are the same buses as before, just their routes are redirected to the stations. So how does Norfolk expect to get 6k to 12k riders per day? Well, one way would be to build new high rise apartments right next to stations. Just think, mass transit right outside, and a great water view of the River. A perfect spot for high end Transit Oriented Development.
Mr. Fabulous
How did those who are "retired/senile/don't drive" manage to vote down the light rail 10 years ago? As in, how in the world did they get to the polling place--smile!
On the other hand, VB is so transient that an election ten years ago means nothing now. It is almost a totally new city with probably a 75% turnover to new people living here now.
I live in VB and I can't wait for the Tide. Not everyone on this board is cut out of the same cloth (wouldn't that be boring!!!). Cheers, MGM
Huh?
"Afraid of the phantom urban citizen that would descend upon the city"....uh, yeah, the ones who committ 50% of VB crimes...but don't even live here. Go ahead...build that light rail in VB. You thought it was bad here now...can't wait to see how much crime increases if this thing actually makes it into the city.
Common sense
Oh come on now. Everyone knows that property next to a RR track is more valuable than property not next to a RR track. Kind of like property in close to an airport is more valuable. Uh.....not because of the noise but because you can get to the airport quicker to travel. I suspect about as many people nearby will be walking to the train station as folks nearby the airport walk to the airport. Don't worry about people moving....their houses can't be sold now.
Light Rail - INgleside Station
I feel sorry for those that will live across the street/in the immediate vicinity of the planned station. Mr. Stein, Assistant City Manager, stated the city is thinking of buying those homes if the owners want to sell. If this happens the city will or can build a parking lot and those residents living on Utah Av. will have a GREAT view of a parking lot. I can imagine how many will walk to the station when the weather is bad, too cold or to hot. Take a guess NONE! Those useing the station will park on the narrow streets restricting the residents. I concur with Ms. Crist the city is stonewalling the residents living in the immediate vicinity. Why you ask? This city does what they want, when they want and do it no matter what the residents say. KING FRAIM AND THE OTHER 7 SHOULD BE RECALLED! Limit council terms to TWO (2). The present council members are to comfortable in the spots they occupy. I stated severa
aalto .... You are among the few, beleive me
The only VB residents who do not want the lite rail are the obly ones who have the time to comment from my experience. Political wranglers, not the majority. Check the demographics again
Yes To Light Rail
Aalto - you seem to have an axe to grind against HRT and anything that could make this area better. As previously stated about the DC Metro, you have to start somewhere and Norfolk got off their butts and started. Now VB wants to join them, which makes absolute sense. As for the VB voters voting against the light rail 10+ years ago, as I recall it was becasue Norfolk and VB could not agree on where the starter line should go -- Oceanfront to NOB or Oceanfront to Downtown Norfolk. So we ended up with politics as usual and got nothing. (Sounds like our Federal Govt with the oil/energy crisis we are currently in, wait 10 years and then try to do something.) I guess I'm one of your "VB nobody's" that wanted light rail 10 years ago and still want it today. Do I work in Norfolk? No. I work in Chesapeake but as I said before - you have to start somewhere. Words of Wisdom: Rome wasn't built in a day (and neither will The T
aalto
Dallas is one example of a major metro area that has recently adopted light rail. It is successful. They are just now completing a run to DFW. These spur lines take time.
As for the voters, most don't know shinola. Many who voted in VB years ago were either a.) afraid of the phantom urban citizen that would descend upon the city b.) retired/senile/don't drive or c.) all of the above. Why should we put the future of mass transit into the hands of ignorant citizens? Allow those we voted into office to make the decision for the greater good.
And aalto, the first time you used the term "choo choo" it was tired.
Water want's light rail?
What good is light rail in a waterway? Maybe turn it into a sea-world like ride around the bay.
Apparently many people either forgot or could care less what the citizens of VB (Chesapeake as well) stated. Regardless if "times have changed", the vote still stands. If the other cities of the Virginia Beach region want to ask the citizens of VB again, then ask. Don't dictate to the citizens that they will get light rail, like it or not. Tata seems to have forgotten the oath he took to uphold the Constitution. Others either failed government class, or just forgot/ignored what they learned. Light rail will not "solve" anything. HRT has not offered any plan to ensure access to light rail is available via an adequate bus system. So I still have to drive to a light rail station. What tourist wants to do that? What major city have you ever been to that does not have mass transportation to it's airport?
Rezone
If your house is across the street from the station, REZONE your house to commercial and sell. Commercial property is 8-10 more valuable than residential property. Take the cash and retire.
Pro Light Rail
Regarding aalto's comments... Light rail is exactly what Hampton Roads wants. We only hear from those who are directly impacted by it or those who need something to complain about when it comes to government spending. Connecting neighborhoods is what makes a city successful, and if the citizens of these cities are not willing to travel from one place to another due to traffic or parking, then light rail will solve that issue. This goes beyond just the citizens. Hampton Roads is a MAJOR vacation destination for tens of thousands and light rail will move those people. Michael_Ragsdal had it right, you have to start small to be big. When was the last time you drove into DC to go to the Smithsonian?
Ingleside is secluded but not quiet
Take a look at the map: The rail line is right next to I-264. It doesn't matter if the trains run 18 hours a day or 24, because you still won't be able to hear them over the traffic on the interstate. Since this is about the only station that I could safely bike to, I hope HRT doesn't cave to the whims of a vocal few residents. Otherwise, I'd say axe the station to save money, when the residents come begging for their station in a few years, let them pay for it themselves.
MAX @ Town Center
So if both reps as well as the city wanted it, why does it not go to Town Center? Doesn't the VB voice matter at HRT? There are at least 5 MAX stops in downtown norfolk and only 2 in VB. HRT does what norfolk says. And they are changing the norfolk end of the service again.
The DC Metro
For everyone who complains that The Tide goes nowhere, think about this: The DC Metro originally opened with just the Red Line "from Rhode Island Avenue to Farragut North, all in the District of Columbia." (Source: Wikipedia Article "Metrorail (Washington, D.C.)"). The length was just 4.6 miles. Now look at how big the system is.
Only a few years!
Just wait afew years and all the train cars from this failure can be buried in the big hole where the Granby Tower failure was supposed to be!
The 36 still runs
The 36 has NEVER been axed. Its service hours never changed drastically. It still stops at Silverleaf: there are bus stops on Holland Road right by Silverleaf Station. Bringing it "though" Silverleaf was always making it run very late (ask any driver). As an HRT User Citizens Advisory Committee Member: yes, both Beach reps (as well as the city) wanted the 960 to serve Town Center as well as Silverleaf.
Light Rail - Ingleside
It is so nice of the City to "Think" of buying the houses "if the owners want to sell" across the street from the Ingleside station. If the City does buy the homes they could build a parking lot. Then the owners of the homes on Utah Av. would have great view. Yea Sure! So far as the walkers I can just imagine how many people will be walking when the weather is bad, cold or hot. Take a guess NONE. The property owners will no doubt have to put up with people parking their vehicles on the streets (which are to narrow for this) around the statiion. I feel sorry for the residents in the immediate area of the station.
Mass Transit?
Back in 2001 there was express service VB to norfolk. It was cut due to low ridership. I doubt reducing service will increase MAX ridership.
Town Center is less than a mile from Silverleaf, and not the most populated in VB. Heck, HRT already cut service (Route 36) from town center/pembroke mall through silverleaf. Why? Low ridership.
If the light rail had indeed been designed as a true mass transit system to reduce traffic congestion, then the starter line would have been planned to indeed reduce congestion. Down I-64 to the naval base. But no, we go from newtown road through downtown norfolk. DC Metro does indeed have full commuter lots. Light rail might as well. They have a whopping 266 parking spots at the newtown road end. WOW! What a reduction in traffic that will be!
Have you been to Ingleside?? I urge you to look for yourself.
As I type this comment right now, there are truck rumbling down Ingleside Drive and proceeding with the construction of the light rail. Since the start of construction there have been problems with vandalism and the houses on Mississippi Ave shaking due to the rumbling and moving of the trucks being used. While I understand the need for mass transit in the city and area as a whole, our neighborhood had been thrown into the plans and it was apparent from the beginning that this was going to get done with our without our consent. Our neighborhood is not suited for a shuttle to drive beyond Miss. Ave. due to the small streets and dead ends...as stated before...there is only one way in and one way out. If the city anticipates 210 riders per day and doesn't provide parking, logic says they're parking in front of residential houses. And still no design for the station? That's crazy....I guess when that
LIGHT RAIL
We as a community have to realize the impact this light rail will have on the development of this corridor from Downtown Norfolk and possibly to the Virginia Beach convention center. This light rail system will create jobs, affordable transportation, LESS TRAFFIC on the interstate and the renewal of the blighted areas and economic stimulus. The residences and businesses we see here now is nothing to what we will see in probably 5 years. There will be medium to high residential, commercial, and industrial areas that this light rail will serve. Yes these people have every right to complain but it is good for the whole of our region. The federal, state, and local governments are in support of this light rail and should be greeted with importance and without debate, its too late! This rail system will change everything for the better. Ride the Tide all over Tidewater!!! Lets get Portsmouth, Ch