NORFOLK
The city will prosecute a trespassing charge against Hampton resident Dan Moore after he was ordered to leave Waterside last week for wearing a gun on his hip, and according to police, refused to leave.
Although the retail complex has received millions of taxpayer dollars, it is a private institution that has the right to ban guns, City Attorney Bernard A. Pishko said.
In Virginia, it is legal to carry a handgun in public.
"Waterside is a commercial venture, with restaurants and shops," Pishko said. "This is not the kind of activity you would expect to find in a public building."
Moore, who has had several brushes with Norfolk police over his right to carry a gun, attended a City Council meeting on Oct. 8. He and members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League told the council that they were upset about how they were being treated by police.
Later that night, Moore and other members of the group were leaving a Waterside restaurant when they were stopped by an off-duty Norfolk police officer. They were all wearing guns. Moore was the only one arrested.
He is scheduled to appear in General District Court on Nov. 14. He could face up to a year in jail and a hefty fine if convicted of the misdemeanor.
Moore said Wednesday that he plans to contest the charge because Waterside is owned by taxpayers.
"The city is talking about tearing it down because it's not making enough money," he said. "There is no question that it is city property."
Moore also said the arresting officer told him that he could not carry a gun inside Waterside because it is a public place. However, he denies refusing to leave Waterside.
No judge will consider Waterside private property, said Philip Van Cleave, who heads the gun rights group. "The city has a big stake in that building. I think the city attorney is doing a lot of wishful thinking."
Twice before, Moore said he has been illegally stopped and questioned by Norfolk police. After the first incident a year ago, when he was detained while downtown, the city paid Moore $10,000 to avoid a lawsuit.
City officials say that although Moore and others who openly carry guns downtown are within their rights, they have done so brazenly in an attempt to attract attention. This time, Moore violated the law and his judgment "could end up costing him," Pishko said.
Pishko's office rarely sends attorneys to prosecute misdemeanors, but Pishko said they will handle this case because of its high profile nature and the precedent it could set.
Van Cleave said his group may help Moore pay for legal representation.
"He stood up to the city, and we certainly can't have that, can we?" Van Cleave asked sarcastically.
"Unfortunately, I've come to expect no less from Norfolk."
Harry Minium, (757) 446-2371, harry.minium@pilotonline.com
Delicious
Digg
Reddit
Facebook
Google
Yahoo
the sporting side
"If you are ever willing to accept an olive branch, allow me or someone you know to take you to the range so you are able to see the sporting side of the issue."
Thanks, but I've been to a firing range before. Please know it isn't that "sport" I'm concerned about. The "sport", if you will, of walking around town posing with an open carry is no sport.
donvabeach: Funny, I didn't
donvabeach: Funny, I didn't know that open carry was a privilege.
Gertz, the same could be said of those who open carry are sick of LEO's using their police power to arrest them asserting their rights under the law that they disagree with.
We are founded on God and guns
Can I still be called an American? I sit on the side lines and watch as the "Great Nation" I was born into is torn away piece by piece.
The God that I know is now denied access to certain buildings except of course when his book is necessary withn them to assure the truth is told.
Each of the freedoms I once enjoyed have been manipulated to the point where slavery is now commonplace on a national scale and is politically mandated through the current child support enforcement system.In a society where homosexual activities are overlooked and possibly even rewarded through legislature I fail to see logical evidence of any misconduct on behalf of Mr. Moore and appreciate the efforts of both Mr. Moore and the VCDL to presrve my rights as a human being with orignal American values.
donvabeach has it right
"behind a guy who was open carrying one day last month, and to see the looks on some of the people's faces, you'd think he was exposing himself.
I don't need that aggravation. Why let the "bad guys" know that you're armed? It just allows gives them more intel, if they decide to try to rob you. I'd rather let them wonder.
I hope all this notoriety doesn't end up with some do-gooders from some anti-gun groups getting a law passed to outlaw all gun carrying. Sometimes, it's better just to enjoy what privileges you have, instead of rubbing the sheeples' faces in them."
Sir, you have it right. People are already getting more active against open carry and the poser, and I'm sure you know some thrive on aggravation.
Some facts for gregoryb68599 to consider...
The Second Amendment (2A) specifies bearing arms - this includes other weapons besides firearms. The 2A is intentionally broad to include all arms from arrows to mortars used for protecting free men from tyrannical government.
If you suggest that the 2A only applies to 200+ year old firearms you must agree also that the First Amendment only applies only to the spoken word, writing with a quill on parchment paper, and publication via manual Gutenberg printing presses?
Would our Founding Fathers object to ideas and thoughts expressed using the telephone, typewriter, radio, billboard, television, computer, and internet?
Is the First Amendment inapplicable to or incompatible with these new technologies?
Jermflux
Very nice offer... I would not hold your breath, but still a nice offer.
...that is rich!
You talking about people that just don't want there rights abused as being hateful. ...and in the same thread your taking about a black guy needing to learn to stay "where he belongs". Unbelievable!
Gertz
Well we can say one thing for ya, at least you stick to your GUNS! Ha, get it? Although I strongly disagree with your views, I admire your tenacity. I do personally know people that have had the same views until I took them to the range to learn how to shoot. Once they are exposed to firearms I find it hard to get them to leave. If you are ever willing to accept an olive branch, allow me or someone you know to take you to the range so you are able to see the sporting side of the issue. Sometimes it helps both sides of an issue if ya just take a breath and share a hotdog. Just a thought…
The difference between a flint lock pistol and a 357 handgun?
Chet I think its time to give you a history lesson. In the time of our Founding Fathers they could have never envisioned the power and round capacity of any handgun from a 357 to a 9 mm. For the simple reason that all handguns were muzzle-loading flintlocks capable of firing one shot each. Usually it would take five men firing five shots simultaneously to stun a man so that he could be taken prisoner or stabbed to death with a sword or knife as attempting to reload was a waste of time and could result in escape or wrath of the enemy. That is why the weapons of choice were flintlock long rifles which was capable of killing a man with a well placed shot, which would explain the bayonet which was placed on the end of the long gun. Therefore the flintlock pistols of our Founding Fathers were essentially stun guns. Don't even try to cheapen the genius and wisdom of our Founding Farthers with your childish logic.
Gertz...
Gertz...I hope you do not consider this simple question "beyond stupidity."
What would you suggest is the best way to protect my wife and children from a drug crazed violent criminal, just out of prison, intent on a night filled with rape and murder?
Please share with me your suggestion.
Right now I carry a firearm to protect them - for the life of me I can't think of any tool more useful in a situation as described above.
gun advocates hate for anyone
Gun advocates hate for anyone to disagree with them, well sorry to say, I'm not going to agree. When you grow up, you will find that life isn't fair, and as spoiled a brat as you are or were, people won't always agree with you. So suck it up, and get on with your foolish comments.
So please feel free to call me childish names, and single me out in you comments because in the long run it speakes of your overall personality.
Why I don't respond to some of you? Well that's an easy one, because some of your questions or comments are beyond stupidity, and it's not worth a response.
re: Gertz after many minutes of
I've countered Gertz's comments with this part of world history. I receive no response. Gertz opines that she is correct, but history has proven her wrong several times, which reminds me of a quote:
Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
And the results are in....
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Gertz after many minutes of
Gertz after many minutes of thinking about all your ANTI-GUN semantics, I remembered a quote from a history class of mine. So Gertz and the rest of the anti gun establishment, this ones for you...
"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future."
- Aldolf Hitler, 1935
I don't need the aggravation.
I have a CHP and sometimes carry concealed, but never open. Why? Because I am cognizant of the fact that the majority of the people around Hampton Roads are not gun lovers. We were walking behind a guy who was open carrying one day last month, and to see the looks on some of the people's faces, you'd think he was exposing himself.
I don't need that aggravation. Also, I don't know if it makes much sense showing all your cards. Why let the "bad guys" know that you're armed? It just allows gives them more intel, if they decide to try to rob you. I'd rather let them wonder.
I hope all this notoriety doesn't end up with some do-gooders from some anti-gun groups getting a law passed to outlaw all gun carrying. Sometimes, it's better just to enjoy what privileges you have, instead of rubbing the sheeples' faces in them.
I don't think you're racist.
I think your opinions show ignorance and closemindedness. You seem to believe that anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong. Allow me to educate you about a few things.
1. Open carry is legal in Virginia. Norfolk is in Virginia, ergo you are able to open carry in Norfolk.
2. Our founding fathers did not carry concealed weapons. They carried them holstered or tucked into their sash/trousers.
3. Attending a city council meeting in the hope of raising awareness about our rights is hardly "parading" around Norfolk.
I would suggest that you educate yourself about the subject before you engage in conversation so you sound less ignorant and don't post wrong information.
Is it race or other bias?
"I hope you are not calling me a racist, because if you are you are way out of line."
He did not call you a racist, implied perhaps. I will say, going by your comment, 'keep himself...where he belongs' it does sound like a back of the bus comment to me. Is your bias race based? Does it matter? Its the same kind of bias.
What kind of person, tells people to stay, "where he belongs?"? The same kind of person that would tell a woman, 'to stay in the kitchen', or a black citizen to "sit in the back". What kind of person tells someone to, 'stay where she/he belongs'?
I don't know if Norfolk singled Dan out because of race or vendetta against him personally. One thing is for sure, They also think Dan should stay 'where he belongs' too! ...and that is despicable. From you, it is just offensive, From them it is an abuse of power. The exact nature is less important than the simple fact it is driven by a bias. They want to 'teach' Dan a leason, cant have him being 'uppity' and not 'where he belongs'!
Norfolk should be ashamed.
sailorcurt did NOT call you a racist gertz..you identified
your views with your own words, to wit: "Maybe then he will keep himself and his gun in Hampton where he belongs." Seems as though your real thoughts have slipped out and are peeking around the corner. Last time I looked, we were free to go anywhere in this great country we want without the fear of being asked for "our papers" every time we cross a state line or into another cities jurisdiction.Again, you have proven that you intend to be the final determinant of who is "correct" and who is not. In Gertz World, if you don't agree with her, you should lose your rights and be put away somewhere so you won't cause any disturbances or infect anyone with all that "subversive talk". Yeah, people like you Gertz hate it when others exercise their constitutional rigbhts...just really messes up that whole plan for Marxist/Communist rule of the people, doesn't it?
sailorcurt
I hope you are not calling me a racist, because if you are you are way out of line.
Gun Supporters can write too
Just look up The Virginia Citizens Defense League and their site has official letters ready to go, addresses, and everything else you need to "write" a letter like some of the opposers...
If the pilot can leave a post here with a preform letter by some blogger with too much time on their hands, then they can leave another post with information about the opposing view right? Or maybe not, would be typical of this paper.
Gertz...why are you afraid to answer my simple question...
A firearm is the best choice when it comes to personal protection. What better suggestion do you have Gertz regarding protecting my family from criminals?
gregoryb68599 - You are funny...open carry a loophole in the law! Since the internet was not around when our constitution was written how about we work together to close this freedom of speech loophole? Our Founding Fathers could have never imagined the internet.
Just so everyone is clear - the Second Amendment is not about giving citizens the right to keep and bear arms - we are born with unalienable rights - they can not be taken away - you can not give them away.
Our Bill of Rights simply warns the government in no uncertain terms that these God-given rights "Shall not be infringed upon" by any government.
This article has had a major
This article has had a major rewrite. The mystery "black arresting officer" has disappeared, and now Phisko ADMITS that Waterside is a public building (at least until the next rewrite).
HEY NORFOLK, YOU'RE GOING DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!
So Funny...
Demolish Waterside... Who? The city? Like others have said this means that the city does own it. Mr. Moore, Since this place is already going to heck in a handbasket have you thought about opening up your own Gun Shop there? With the money the city gives you this time you can probebly buy water side. Out of 50 people, you were the only man of color singled out as you were walking out. So it has to be racial, which ups the ante on a civil rights case.
If you do open one up, can I set up your computer network? I'll do it for free... :-)
Answer, write your State Senator
I am not even going to respond to any of these gun activist. The people I am petitioning are the people who don't agree with the open carry gun law. There is a very simple answer and a more productive way to address this issue. Send every State Senator a letter/email voicing your objections to this loophole in the law and request a change that will better serve our local Police and City Government. Here is the end paragraph of my draft."Therefore would you good offices please advise me of how you intend to respond to this issue, thereby freeing up the valuable resources of our prospective local Police Departments so that they might focus on the many other important aspects of law enforcement and stop the waste of City Government taxpayers monies so that they might be used in a more productive manner?" The pen is mightier that the peashooter.
Gertz
City of Norfolk own's Waterside. No way will this person be found guilty of "Trespass". Bill of Rights Gertz, read it and be enlightened.
Tare down the mall?
They who? The city? So if city can tare down the mall without useing eniment domain but just for the reason of not allowing a gun shop to open there then they must own it. Good point, glad you brought that up. By your own admition you agree the city owns it and it is public property. Thank you for helping his cause. Case closed...
Gertz
"Submitted by Gertz Point on Thu, 10/16/2008 at 4:48 pm.
There isn't a Judge in Norfolk that will find Mr. Moore innocent. Mr. Moore may not go to jail, but don't hold your breath, and he will be finded. Maybe then he will keep himself and his gun in Hampton where he belongs. Norfolk has enough to deal with, we don't need the Mr Moore's of the world."
Gertz, the only way he will pay a fine or go to jail is if you were the judge. And thank goodness you aren't. A real judge will judge facts and the law. You would judge strictly on emotion. You don't care what the law is as long as the end justifies the means. Facts and the truth hurts sometimes. You should take Jermflux on the $50.00 bet.
goalie
Assuming that you are correct about Mr Moore's motives, maybe he would quit going to Norfolk if people engaging in a legal activity were simply left alone? (Assuming that he is only in it for the money. But I heard he was in Norfolk to attend a council meeting or some such nonsense. I guess his job and familial obligations weren't enough to keep him from asserting his right to be heard.)
they will taer Waterside down
before Moore has a gun show there.
I'll take that bet...
Fifty bucks says his charge gets dismissed. The city gave him a huge some of money to fight them with, ha. I can't wait to shop at his new gun store in waterside.