NORFOLK
Once again, members of a guns-rights advocacy group are coming to City Hall, claiming their rights have been violated by the police.
The Virginia Citizens Defense League, a Northern Virginia-based group, said 100 or more of its members will descend upon Tuesday's City Council meeting to vent their displeasure, many with guns holstered to their hips.
The group is upset about a police confrontation involving a member carrying a weapon openly, which is legal in Virginia.
The group last came to the City Council in August 2007, when members protested the arrest of Chet Szymecki of Yorktown at Harborfest for openly carrying a gun. The charge was dropped; Szymecki has filed a federal suit against the city.
They also protested at that meeting about alleged harassment of Danladi Moore, a Peninsula resident who was stopped twice by police and questioned for openly carrying a gun shortly before the meeting.
The city paid Moore $10,000 in July to prevent what could have been long and costly litigation.
However, Moore said, he again was stopped, on Sept. 22, this time while attempting to ride a Hampton Roads Transit bus with a gun. Moore claims police took his gun, ordered him off a bus and threatened to arrest him before eventually giving the gun back and letting him go.
Chris Amos, police spokesman, said he couldn't respond to Moore's specific claims about his September run-in with officers.
"All I know is, we responded to a call for service," Amos said. "We are not at liberty to just refuse" to do so.
Amos said that after Moore's previous incidents, police leaders "sent a memo out in-house reasserting the rights citizens have to carry firearms in plain view." There hasn't been time to react to the latest incident, he said.
Philip Van Cleave, a Midlothian resident who heads the guns-rights group, said he believes Moore will sue the city over the latest incident.
"If Norfolk doesn't begin to get it right, Danladi may wind up owning a yacht or a castle somewhere," he said. "At some point, the people of Norfolk are going to get tired of their tax money being thrown away because the police are violating a basic right," he added.
City Council members acknowledged that the city may have erred, but they accused gun owners of being provocative.
Councilman W. Randy Wright has a concealed-weapons permit, has won awards for marksmanship and believes in gun rights, he said. Yet he said he is appalled by anyone who walks around with a gun in a holster.
"Walking around downtown with a gun on your hip, that's just somebody trying to get attention, somebody trying to embarrass the city," he said. "This is not Wyatt Earp in the wild, wild West. It's an urban city with lots of problems.
"It does absolutely nothing to further the rights of the Second Amendment."
Replied Van Cleave: "He's admitting the city has a lot of problems. That, in itself, is a reason to carry, because you may need to protect yourself."
Van Cleave said he wonders if the incident with Moore was racially motivated, as he is black.
Councilman Paul R. Riddick said that's ridiculous.
"When you see a guy standing downtown in front of a bank with a gun on, what would you expect the average policeman to do?" he said. "You'd expect him to find out what the hell is going on."
Riddick and other council members weren't aware of the financial settlement with Moore. "Before we issue another $10,000 check, we should go to the highest court in the land," he said.
Councilman Barclay C. Winn, who is a hunter, said the guns-rights group's actions are precisely why he won't joint the NRA - the powerful lobbyists the National Rifle Association.
"I believe in the right to bear arms," he said. "But I just don't understand why somebody feels the need to strap a gun on his side, knowing full well that people are going to be alarmed and upset. I don't understand why they have to be such big, bad macho men."
Van Cleave said this is not about being macho - it's about exercising a constitutional right.
"What the city of Norfolk is asking us to do is to give up one of our basic constitutional rights," he said. "Would you ask black citizens to sit in the back of the bus and shut up?"
Riddick left while Van Cleave's group spoke during last year's meeting, saying he didn't want to dignify the group by staying. The meeting was at times tense.
Riddick said he knows a way to ease the tension.
"We should call Bob's Gun Shop and have him deliver eight 9-millimeters to us," he said. "We'll keep them on our desk in case we need them."
Pilot writer Matthew Bowers contributed to this report.
Harry Minium, (757) 446-2371, harry.minium@pilotonline.com
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Minding our own...
Really, who cares what someone is carrying on their hip, or more so, why do they care? It's their hip, their business. Yeah, its a little silly to go around flaunting it, but its their right and God help us,(whoever you perceive him to be), if that right is ever removed. Unless a person has been proven incompetent for whatever reason or has forfeited their right to carry by being convicted of a felony, they should be able to walk around with whatever they want on their hip or in their pocket because they are not a threat to others. Its not the device that makes someone a threat, but the person. "Do as you will, harm no one", is one of the wisest quotes written. It's basically a nice way to say, "Mind your own business". I'm probably wasting my breath here, because it's impossible to reason with those who are incapable of truly logical thinking....whether it be due to conditioning or some other factor, so many walk around fearful and the only way they can curb this fear is to feel as if they have a degree of control and often do what they can to exert this control over others. Assuming that every armed civilian has bad intentions or is some kind of tin foil hat wearing fanat
Outsiders
I really can't believe some of the things I'm reading here. Here we have a few paranoid and/or self-aggrandizing narcissistic personalities coming from out of town, to tie up the good resources of the Norfolk Police Department. If you are that paranoid about leaving your hometown of Hampton/Yorktown or Northern Virginia, that you have to carry a gun, then stay at home. Or if you are in such dire need to aggrandize your self in public by the ornamental display of a hand gun, do it in your own city (or is your bizarre behavior also causing your home town police to question you motives also.) I applaud the efforts of the Norfolk Police Department to investigate your bizarre behavior.
I didn't
but I would have. Grin!
I was at the meeting as well
I was at the meeting as well and didn't then and don't believe now that Norfolk City Council or NPD will change their policy. With these violations of state law and the pending lawsuits, Danladi Moore will be a millionaire thanks to the City of Norfolk and Gertz who probably called the police on him. (Wink wink)
mr wright was not present
Sounds like Mr. Wright was the only smart one in the bunch. None of the Council members should have showed up to even justify a group of people walking around with a gun on their hip. So childish!
Norfolk City Council and Guns
I was at he City Council meeting last night, when Philip Van Cleave and several others spoke about guns and Norfolk police enforcement. Mr. Riddick was there, and his responses were reasonable and measured. Mr. Wright was not present. I believed it was agreed upon that the police need to be more informed of legitimacy of open-carry in Virginia, and that the HRT policy of caling the police when someone board a bus with a pistol needs to be addressed.
Unfortunately, after the meeting, when the VCDL members went over to Waterside, the same person (Danladi Moore), who has been stopped while open-carrying, was stopped and cited again (that's three times now). Other people also open-carrying were not stopped. Could it be because he was the only black?
This made a lot of what was said in the council meeting questionable at best.
Reply
If you grew up in Yorktown you would understand we refer to it as York County.
I have no intentions of changing my name.
Sorry, but it wasn't me at the Bank of the Commonwealth.
Please continue to call me whatever you like. I may or may not respond.
Peace!
Ruining your credibility
Folks, if you want to destroy your credibility on this board, follow this example...
Gertz Point said, "Village people wannabe's. That's all it boils down to. Macho men you are not! Little boys who want to play with guns, you are."
If I was Gertz, I'd change my name and start over on this board, after that outburst. Who would give her comments any consideration after this childish display?
By the way, both of my daughters have permits, practice regularly (it's a family affair!), and carry concealed. Little boys, they ain't. The only thing they're compensating for is the fact that they live in the real world.
Gertz...
...there is a chance we may have actually met at the Bank of the Commonwealth in Ocean View where you live. This was months ago and if I recall you were chatting about a recent trip to visit family on the west coast. We also talked about your son. I do hope all is going well for you and your family.
Just in case you didn't know - I too am always armed - sometimes concealed, sometimes open carry. Despite our significantly different beliefs regarding politics, religion, etc. I would not hesitate to risk my life while defending yours...it's just the way I was raised.
May God Bless you Gertz.
how ironic
Gertz, you claim to have grown up in Yorktown (which is not a county, incidentally, which is why I question your veracity - I'd think a native would know that). Yorktown is where we won our independence and secured our rights as free Americans yet you would deny your fellow Americans the ones you do not especially like. I agree, this is an emotional issue, but the emotion is almost all on the 'anti' side because the calm, rational facts lie almost exclusively with the advocates. What would your reaction be if you had to have training, get background check and apply for a permit from the government to exercise your right to free speech? Had to register with the state to attend a church? What if the police came to your house with no warrant but you couldn't stop them from searching your house because you lacked the proper paperwork proving your right to exercise your 4th Amendment rights? If you see a person legally wearing a gun and you call the police, I hope no one tries to break in your home (or worse) while the police are tied up harassing him.
Gertz
"Please explain. Brain washing by whom?"
I don't any explanation is necessary. Your previous posts on this subject explains it all. You are all for freedom and civil rights as long as you agree with those rights. It's either all or nothing.
one last thought
Passions run high on this subject and I'm very passionate about how I feel. So have at it, and call me anything you want, but I make no apology for how I feel. I have nothing else to say on this blog, but will continue to work on restricting guns in certain venues. Peace!
Restore Voting Rights
If we are going to restore voting rights to convicted felons, let's go all the way let them purchase, and carry handguns. What the heck, give them a CHP as well.
your right to bear arms
Yes, you have the right to bear arms to protect your property, and I would not try and take that right away. I am 65, female, and don't want a gun, I'm also not afraid to leave my home, and don't feel the need to carry a gun. I do question those who feel they have to have a gun with them at all times, even to wear it on their hip for all to see. That to me is a HUGE problem, and yes, I do questions the insecurity of that kind of mentality. I grew up in Yorktown and that man who wore his gun to Harborfest would have never done such a thing in that County. His agenda, was an "in your face" agenda, and I hope it backfires. If everyone starts to open carries a gun, how will we be able to tell the "crook" from the so called sane gun owner? If I see an open carry gun,I WILL call the police, and I'm sorry if any of you have a problem with that.
Actually I don't completely
Actually I don't completely agree. To say that the presence of a gun is as safe as the absence of a gun, all other things being equal, is patently false.
Anger management issues too
I agree, But how do we sort those people with short fuses out? Have the clerk at the gun store pick on them while they fill out the paperwork?
Anger Management Issues ?
"When I read comments about "my attorney", "fascism", "college dropout", etc. It makes my blood boil."
If you have that short a fuse, then perhaps you should not carry a firearm. But for those of us who are sufficiently secure in our self worth and who do not anger when someone has a different opinion, doing so is not a danger to anyone.
how so Keith
"Yes Gertz, and you have proved your point. 40 years of brain washing. It sure shows."
Please explain. Brain washing by whom?
and it gets better
Again, you threaten others with censorship because you don't like a comment thrown your way but now you accuse gun rights advocates of being homosexual. Classic. An interesting choice to use as a slur coming from you, I have to say. "Little boys who want to play with guns, you are." Umm, no. I have multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan and firearms is one of the reasons I am back here able to spar with you on these boards. Having said that, I have never carried a weapon off duty and have never felt the need to do so, but that doesn't mean that I don't fully support others' right to do so. You accuse gun owners of being insecure because they exercise their rights. I could turn the tables on you and say the reason you are among the most prolific posters on these (protected by the 1st Amendment) boards is because you are insecure and don't think anyone will listen to what you have to say in any other venue (I realize the same could be said of me, of course). I serve in the Army to protect ALL of our rights, not just the ones with which I personally agree or wish to use.
Gertz..."Make no mistake I
Gertz..."Make no mistake I had more than 1 psych class, and 40 years experience after graduation. What you think is of little importance."
Yes Gertz, and you have proved your point. 40 years of brain washing. It sure shows.
mary with all due respect
I'm not making fun of the Villare People, I just find it intersting that grown men want to imulate the Macho image when infact they do have a level of insecurity. Please read Mr. Falulous comment, I think he said it best.
When I read comments about "my attorney", "fascism", "college dropout", etc. It makes my blood boil.
Gertz Point
I don't understand a few things you have written. Why are you making fun of the Village People when your son is gay? I thought you are proud of him!
Also, why do you often dismiss people by saying that their thoughts are irrelevant to you? If you don't care what anyone thinks, why are you on this board? I think most of us here have deeply cherished ideas, but I doubt that we can *never* have our minds changed by what we read. I know I have even thought long and deeply about some things you have written in the past. But not the ones dismissive of any other viewpoint but your own. Those seem too disrespectful of others for me to be able to see your point. Cheers, MGM
village people wannabe's
That's all it boils down to.
Macho men you are not! Little boys who want to play with guns, you are.
Open carry
The Citizens need to educate themselves as well as the officers all laws, not just the ones pertaining to gun rights. I can tell that the people who are calling the police on a law abiding citizen exercising his or her rights to bear arms don’t live in my neighborhood. I live off of Berkley Blvd across the street is Norfolk and my side of the street is Chesapeake, You would think I would have the best of both worlds as in police presents…NOT... It’s the Wild West out here more gun fire than I heard in Iraq. If you call the police they come straight to your residence that lets the neighborhood know who called and when you get up in the morning to 5 flat tires yes 5 including the spare. To make a long story short my canceled permit has expired and if I go to the store at night or even to dump the garbage I am armed. Walking around in the house I am armed. I openly carry my weapon it’s more of a deterrent. You live where you can afford. We all can’t afford to live in downtown Great Bridge or Gent. There are still good honest people living in south Norfolk and all the Bad places we like to talk about.
more of the same
"Comments like that can get you kicked off or delayed on this blog. Watch your step." So you refer to advocates of the 2nd Amendment as mentally ill, insecure, scared, scary and compensating for undersized (fill in the blank with Pilot-acceptable word), etc and that's perfectly OK. Someone throws a comment your way you don't like and you essentially threaten them with censorship? Interesting. Are you OK with the 2nd Amendment at all or only if the rights enshrined therein are not exercised? I ask because you always say that people who do exercise their rights are "in your face." You also say, "When every gun advocate decides to open carry, there is nothing to stop the crook so he can fit right in." This is SUCH a typical gun rights opponent comment. Never armed with facts, you always resort to the "what if" scenarios that have never played out. Arizona has among the most liberal and long-standing gun laws in the country and there hasn't been an explosion of insecure, truck drivin', frightened, scary, small (stuff) havin' galoots running around a-wearin' their guns. Except in a Bugs Bunny cartoon.
read my fabulous comment
Because he hit the nail on the head.
"My carrying habits have always and will always follow the law, and anyone who interfears with any of my legal rights will be corresponding with my attorney, a real one, not Fraim."
Trying to intimidate anyone never did work, and I'm not the least bit afraid of you or your attorney.
"Methinks that our resident "psychology major who didn't get a psychology degree" is engaging in a bit of projection here."
Make no mistake I had more than 1 psych class, and 40 years experience after graduation. What you think is of little importance.
Open or concealed
I'm known to do both. It typically depends on where I'm heading. I prefer concealed as not to inflame sheeple the likes of Gertz. However, I will always open carry when I must venture into areas known for high crime. Why? It's an easy answer. Prominent display of my sidearm has turned possible criminals away from me. Paranoid? No. You see, these upstanding citizens were headed directly towards me in situations where there was absolutely no business to do so. Upon seeing my exposed weapon they hesitated and turned to walk in the opposite direction. If you wish to go about unarmed just remember that crime happens everywhere. You are not impervious to it...not even in your own driveway. We could go on about mental states and pyschological interpetation. I'm not trying to compensate for shortcoming. I've never been a bully. I'm not delusional and terrified of shadows. As I have explained to my young daughter, there are real monsters in our world. They happen to look just like us too. Be prepared.
It's not psychological; it's political
Virginia recognizes the RIGHT to keep and BEAR arms, but laws against concealed carry were upheld in court as merely regulating the MODE of carry. Later, even open carry led to arrests -- for "disturbing the peace".
The new "shall-issue" concealed carry laws ameliorated this situation. But getting a concealed-carry permit is still treated as a privilege under the law -- not as a constitutional right. And what about our right to bear arms in the places where concealed-carry permits do not apply?
Whatever the restrictions imposed on our concealed carry permits, we still have a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to carry a gun for self-defense in SOME mode of carry ANYWHERE we choose to go.
Time to Take It Back
I have read all of the comments and I can hardly believe my eyes. For those of you who are against open carry, would you rather it be concealed carry? Personally, I like being able to see the weapon. If weapons make you nervous, do not come to South Norfolk because we have a bunch of them hidden inside of coat pockets, pockets of hoodies, waistbelts, etc. where you cannot see them. I having been here for the last three years, I can tell you that I appreciate open-carry and the need to own personal protection - you need it. For those of you who think you do not, read your paper. There is always a body washing up, being found and someone getting shot. You can live with your head in the sand all you want, but the statistics prove it. I wonder how many open-carry individuals have actually committed a crime?
Compensating
Oh, and guys with big trucks and guns oftentimes are compensating. Period. I majored (and have) a degree in Psychology. So sayeth Mr. Fabulous.
Poor English grammar skills aside, I agree. I'm compensating for the fact that I can't throw a rock at 1100 feet per second.
I'm compensating for the fact that I'm 40% disabled and couldn't out-fight or outrun a violent attacker if my life depended on it.
And I'm compensating for the fact that the Police are neither capable of protecting me, nor are they legally obligated to do so.
BTW...I would imagine that the many female gun owners in this country are compensating for very similar considerations as well.