Norfolk light-rail work behind schedule, over budget

If this is par for the course then why is the councilman of the opinion that "professionals" were paid to give them a definite date when it would be done. That suggests that either someone is not truly aware of the magnitude and nature of such a project being undertaken, or that there was some misrepresentation of the details of the idea to begin with. This is a good idea, but seems to be one in which no one is totally sure what the other hand is doing, or why, typical of most of Norfolk's projects. So what will it now be 2011, 2012; the paper couldn't tell us that, just that bad news lies ahead.

Cost overuns? Can you believe it? Can you say "bail out"? That seems to be the popular term these days..$750 Billion here $150 Billion there. The cost over runs and good ole boy contracts will be a frequent occurance for a line that provides transport for few people. The sad part is the citizens of Norfolk will be "bailing out" HRT in the end as they are responsible for the cost over runs. What's even sadder is that Virginia Beach will be helping the bail out once we get suckered in to extending it to the oceanfront for the benefit of tourists rather than build a line that goes to the major employers in the area. Folks, start filling up your sand pails with cash.

Why is it that HRT can raise fares for people who are riding in crowded buses everyday the 15,1 and 20 always crowded so much so the 15 will leave people who maybe waiting for the bus during the hours from 8AM-10AM but light rail is needed in downtown Norfolk ?
And as always with Norfolk nothing can ever be finished on time but always late like the buses or more funding is needed to put in place something that no doubt looks pretty but not effective. Im tired of things looking pretty around town like the Mermaids started off looking nice but now some are torn down and scribbled upon or seguins are missing.
Put the money where the people need it. In affordable Housing ( not 700.00 or more for Families with more than 2 Children), Health care and Larger Schools not Jails and when all of that is done then lets boo hoo about light rail. Catch a cab its just about the same effect but slower.

Who is the target audience for passengers? What major employers are going to benefit? How many people can this thing move during rush hour? Are operating costs subsidized once it is built? Will free tickets be distributed?

The planners for this project are not getting the word out on how it benefits the taxpayer.
The money would be better spent on the Jordan Bridge. Not only would the past commuters have benefited but the commuters of the alternate routes that are now going to be further delayed and inconvenienced because the alternate routes will be more crowded.

It is obvious none of the HRT officials, Norfolk elected officials, nor most of the posters to this page have studied the history of passenger "light rail" in Norfolk and Virginia Beach. Yes, there was a system in place that ran a circuit around both cities. Why did it not continue? Do some research and you will discover why it was shut down (and no, it was not due primarily to the "trolley conspiracy").

If you think mass transit in Hampton Roads can be done with buses only, you've obviously never rode the major trunk routes (Routes 1, 15, and 20) at rush hour. Extra buses on and it still doesn't work, largely because buses have to fight other traffic on the same roads.

That's why a light rail network is needed as the backbone of our mass transit system. It doesn't have to be elaborate, just a few lines to relieve the major bus routes.

You have seen a cost anaylsis for this light rail and it's goning to save VB money?

Yet another uninformer voter. Wise up VB, its important. If you want Gotham, no need to take the train just hop on I95 North. Don't look back!

Let's get a couple of things straight. First off, I am not a tree-hugger, nor a Huge SUV owner. What I am is a person who feels that I have done extensive research on this boondoggle project and have made an intelligent decision to be against waste. You talk about Flat-Earthers, and negative responders? Why, because you want to take money that isn't available in the Federal, State or Local governments and build something that is already outdated. Look at St Louis, Baltimore and the other cities that have light rail and see what their ridership numbers are and what it is costing the cities to run this program. It isn't working. I would rather them double my taxes with an efficient mode than what they have planned, so please don't stereotype me. Imagine this. I live in the so-called green section of VA Beach. It takes me 15 minutes to get to 264 each day. If I took the LR it would take me 15 minutes to get to the station, an estimated, based on HRT's numbers, 5 minutes to wait for the train, take the train 20 minutes to Ballentine Blvd where I normally exit, then exit the train, wait for a bus, then ride the bus 3 miles to my job, which is at least 50 minutes from start to finis

I'm stunned, I may have to lie down. How can this be????

HRT Light Rail can do nothing but good for this area. The idea that tourists from the Ocean Front can travel to Norfolk to spend their dollars and Cruise Ships from Norfolk to the Ocean Front alone is worth the costs of the rail. The future of linking the Military Facilities with the rail is total brillance. The traffic of the interstates, the tunnels, and the area as a whole is overwhelming. People travel to Norfolk daily from Virginia Beach to work and vice versa. Most people arriving at their work location never leave until their journey home. The costs of fuel, pollution, automobile accidents, and general stress of road rage is out of control. Again, I reiterate, HRT Light Rail is and will continue to be a blessing to the area.

"The project is facing escalating costs, like almost all construction projects across the country," said Matthew Tucker, director of the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation. "The cost escalation is not reflective of poor business decisions; it's reflective of the market." Baloney....liberal cost escalation is always factored into professionally prepared budget estimates. When the budget est for this project was put together, materials costs due to China were well known. Fact of the matter is...construction bids overall have been falling the last 2 quarters as markets tighten and become more competitive. Most consultants and recommending "build it NOW and take advantage of the current competitive market."
Mentioning the words "Mass Transit" in any discussion about this bus on wheels is a moot point and irrelevent. This project is not "Mass Transit" by any definition.
Those insinuating that anyone opposed to this project are some sort of Ludites are way off base. Not opposed to progress, but this is NOT progress by any measure. Just doing "something" even though it is a waste of money is not progress. The funds wasted on this boondoggle could have been used on

Light rail is our best solution to a problem that is only going to grow worse as time passes. Those who complain about the cost must think that buses and drivers and fuel are free. What about time and money lost to commuting? What about polution? What about the cost of roads that are only needed for a few hours a day?
The high cost of Light Rail is on the front end. We'll save, nay make money in the long run.
I live in Virginia Beach and if the Light Rail shows up on the ballot I'll vote for it. Just like I did last time.

The comment - "They are local contractors who know they cannot complete a project or on time when they sign the contract. The cities continue to sign them up. Ask about integrity, not about the weather." - is way off base.
One of the contractors on this project has done work on one of my jobs (never knew them until then), and they had more integrity then most of the posters here. They did thousands of $ of work for free just to keep the project moving, repaired some large mistakes both parties erred on at no cost. They didn't complain about it, ask for favors, or pass the blame onto someone else, now that is what I call integrity. Can you make the same claim, or (as can be seen by the posts) do you blame someone else?

Judging by the comments here, we wouldn't have invented the wheel, discovered penicillin, or landed on the moon. If you had your way, we would still be walking, dyeing of curable diseases, and living in fear of the USSR while cooking with cast iron pans.
Key words here people, cost "estimate", "proposal", and "contingency". Oh, that's right, the "professionals" didn’t go their Astrologer (remember Reagan) and discover that gas was going to jump 50%, and that the credit companies were going to go out of business.

What a money-pit this light rail is turning out to be. Just WHO is going to ride the darn thing? I hope that enough people will ride the light rail so that I-264 will be less congested for me.

I imagine you are one of those people who preach about the enviroment while driving an oversized SUV, when was the last time you rode the bus?
See Hernyr's comment - I would ride the train.
Bottom line - light rail is coming! - if the other cities in Hampton Roads get on board, then it has a chance to become a useful alternative to an oversized SUV.

I agree w/ the sentiment. However, the school would likely raise a stink about their students having to walk throug hthe neighborhood the school is in. Ironically the same one they said the train would cause crime in. That's my 2 cents

This change was not budgeted...so it goes as is or it is not built. Then if the NSU leadership wants a station it can be built later. Why in the world would they want their students on the other side of Brambleton Ave.? So much for "higher" education.
So this will save a lot of money and we need to get the starter line running as efficiently as possible. The nay sayers are still saying that airplanes will not carry passengers...so we need to have positive steps to show the area that light rail can work. Of course, we will need to expand it to meet the work and play habits of the area and HRT has plans for growth all over greater Hampton Roads.
No, I don't work for HRT, but folks this is the best plan going and it IS state and federally funded. We can't build anymore roads or bridges so mass transit is what you are getting.

Sorry, but your argument doesn't work. Steel and the other materials used to build the tracks, etc. were just as high when the initial costs came out a couple of years ago, and not only that, the cost of most raw materials has recently been decreasing because of the economic downturn. You can go to any material price index and retrieve the previous market results to see this for yourself. So, yeah, they are well over budget and the project isn't anywhere close to being complete.

As incredibly stupid as it would be to build this project without at stop at NSU, they shouldn't let it destroy the whole budget. Until the college realizes the huge mistake they made, students can still use the Ballentine station.

How is it we can find $232 million plus, to build light rail but can't fix the Jordan Bridge. Maybe we can tell PETA it's for dogs and cats and they will chip in. If the Jordan bridge and other road projects don't happen look for the Navy to move more ships to Jacksonville, for secutity reasons. Maybe Obama will have some campaign money left over and will fix the bridge for us.

What a Surprise???

Nearly ALL construction is behind schedule and over budget these days. This is mostly because the costs of materials like steel have sky-rocketed around the world because of rising demand in China and other developing countries. Other costs (i.e. fuel) are up as well.

Steel is absolutely critical in ALL transportation projects INCLUDING highway construction (no steel means no reinforced concrete). Cost overruns have become endemic in most road construction as well. Before you blame light rail, take a look at cost increases in the competition (particularly highway construction) as well as the hidden costs caused by sprawl, traffic and poor planning. We are facing huge systemic cost increases far beyond those related to light rail construction.

The contracters should have been more liberal in their cost estimates- we've seen overruns for years in other systems (Charlotte), but ridership estimates were also lowballed in those cities. The light rail line in Charlotte, for instance, was much more expensive than anticipated, but ridership far exceeded expectations- and even capacity- as well. Less than a year after it opened, city leaders are already considering adding train

OK people, let's try this again. Richmond doesn't give two hoots on whether light rail works as a commuter line initially. It's purpose is to link Hampton Roads with Richmond. Just as the Northern Virgina rail project is to link that area with Richmond. And don't forget the TransDominion rail running east/west across the state.

HenryR wrote:

In conjunction with the DEIS to extend The Tide Newtown Road - Dome site, a DEIS is being done to extend The Tide EVMS - Norfolk NOB. That would bring both Oceana and Norfolk NOB online.

By the time a Draft Environmental Impact Statement is completed at each site, this thing will already be complete, over budget and an abject failure. And the last time I checked, Virginia Beach doesn't want it, so your argument is academic

Had HRT thought this out, gotten all the studies done and included all the cities this may have been something people would get on board for. But seven miles of train that goes virtually nowhere and will not have enough ridership to pay for its operation?

Where is Mike Barrett and his non-profit sportsplex argument.....

The cost overruns and delays were predictable. It is rare when any transportation construction is done for it to come in on time and under budget these days. Poor planning? There's a good chance of that. Greed on the part of the contractors, knowing they've got a locked money pit going? Good chance of that too. Too loose of contracts? Definitely a case of that. No surprises here, just more disgusting incompetance.

In a partial defense of the city, I've liked the idea and proposition of installing a mass transit system of any kind. Of options available, I support the choice of rail. This area already is, and has for years, been choking on it's own infrastructure, poor planning, and a public that likes driving themselves more than carpool, etc. We need SOMETHING if we're to continue growing and support the transportation needs of the swelling public. This is at least a start.

Virginia Beach let Norfolk be the guinea pig to get the ball rolling and though this project, once completed, will take it's less-than-desired hit on public usage and profits; it will be there when (not if) we grow too much for our crumbling roads. And why wouldn't people use it? Have the proper routes and access, then there'll be no reason to whine.

Ok, the economy is in shambles, but you think that it is okay to spend an estimated $400 million dollars on a system that has historically shown, through other cities in the US, that it is inefficient, slow, lacks ridership and has huge cost overruns and maintenance expenses, but you think that it is a good idea? In order to have a light rail in these cities, you have to have a way to move the people from the depots/stops, to their final destinations. Did you know that HRT does not yet know how they plan on doing this. They 'Think' that they will buy buses(more expense) and have routes from the LR stop to your final destination. Why not just use buses in the first place. Designate bus lanes and buy hydrogen/electric/green buses, which cost alot less and can move just as many people? This is a really bad plan and for those of you who have jumped aboard, do some research, find out how much, estimated 8-9 million dollars a year in expense, over revenues/budget, and will fall on the citizens to pay for. Way to much for me in these economic times. I await your response.

RaddyB,

It has been proven in other localities that people who won't ride a bus will ride a train. Ask Minneapolis.

Orion,

In conjunction with the DEIS to extend The Tide Newtown Road - Dome site, a DEIS is being done to extend The Tide EVMS - Norfolk NOB. That would bring both Oceana and Norfolk NOB online.

Fortunately the VB council still will not ride the tide of failure. VB taxpayers smartly voted no years ago. We were able to forsee the future, and it was not a good vision.

Now norfolk council and HRT are dying for VB to "jump onboard". Why? Because if VB goes a ga-ga over light rail like norfolk did, there would be a major infusion of taxpayer cash into the HRT account. Used to cover all these cost over-runs. There would be no money left, and VB would never see a foot of train track. One good decision from VB council. As for Uhrin, he is only one wrong voice in a room of 11.