Norfolk Mayor Paul Fraim said he will urge state officials to build a new, toll-free Jordan Bridge between Chesapeake and Portsmouth.
Fraim said he will ask state officials to bundle the replacement of the Jordan Bridge with a proposal made from a private group to expand the Midtown Tunnel.
Skanska, a Swedish construction firm, is leading a group that offered the state a $2 billion proposal to expand the Midtown Tunnel, build the Martin Luther King Freeway Extension in Portsmouth, and improve the Downtown Tunnel.
The group, Elizabeth River Crossings, would levy tolls and operate the roads and tunnels for 50 years. The group has proposed tunnel tolls as high as $3. Fraim has said a toll of $1 likely would be charged.
Fraim said even at $1, the tolls will provide some excess money, and he wants that to be spent on the Jordan Bridge.
"It is such a vital link in our transportation network," he said of the 80-year-old bridge, which Chesapeake officials closed in November.
"While we're planning for the Midtown Tunnel expansion, we need to talk about doing the Jordan Bridge at the same time."
Fraim announced at a meeting between the Norfolk City Council and the city's General Assembly delegation last week that he met with Skanska officials recently to discuss his proposal. He plans a more extensive meeting in the next few months.
He also plans to raise the issue with the Hampton Roads Metropolitan Planning Organization, which does road planning for the region, and has begun discussions with officials in Portsmouth and Chesapeake.
The Jordan Bridge, which linked the South Norfolk section of Chesapeake with Portsmouth just south of downtown Norfolk, was closed by Chesapeake on Nov. 8 because it had deteriorated beyond repair.
The structure carried 7,000 vehicles per day, and many of those vehicles now add to congestion on the Downtown and Midtown tunnels that cross between Portsmouth and Norfolk.
Chesapeake officials estimate the cost of replacing the Jordan Bridge at more than $300 million. Although the Jordan Bridge had a 75-cent toll, Chesapeake officials said the tolls were insufficient to pay for a replacement.
Fraim said Skanska officials told him they could build a new Jordan Bridge for around $100 million.
"These are very bright people, and they've got some good ideas," he said. "They are convinced they can do it for about $100 million."
Fraim said a new Jordan Bridge should be a toll-free option to tunnels and bridges where fees would be collected. "That would give people who can't afford to pay tolls, or don't want to pay tolls, an alternative," he said.
Chesapeake and Portsmouth officials say they are intrigued with the idea.
Chesapeake Mayor Alan Krasnoff said he has discussed the idea briefly with Fraim and plans to meet with him to discuss it in detail.
"It's definitely an idea that should be explored," he said.
Portsmouth City Councilman Doug Smith said he has not talked to Skanska officials or Fraim about a new Jordan Bridge but called the proposal "an interesting, intriguing idea."
Fraim said he also hopes that planning for expanding light rail to Norfolk's west side will be a part of the Midtown Tunnel project. The light-rail project, now under construction, would extend from the Virginia Beach border to the city's medical complex, just east of the Midtown Tunnel.
Fraim wants light rail extended past the Midtown Tunnel northward to Old Dominion University and the Norfolk Naval Station.
The mayor said he will ask officials to consider routing light rail around West Ghent via the Elizabeth River, then bringing it to Hampton Boulevard near ODU.
Because Hampton Boulevard is a cramped, four-lane road in West Ghent and Ghent, it has been ruled out as a light-rail route.
However, the road expands to six lanes near ODU. Fraim said there would be enough room to expand light rail along Hampton Boulevard to the Navy station.
A similar proposal for a highway around West Ghent was nixed by neighborhood concerns about noise, lights and pollution.
"If you put light rail around there on stilts, you avoid those problems," Fraim said.
"I won't be mayor when all of this happens. But we need to start planning for it now."
Pilot writers Jen McCaffery and Mike Saewitz contributed to this report.
Harry Minium, (757) 446-2371, harry.minium@pilotonline.com
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By the way Mike......
Why on earth would you put up a link that provides the Wikepedia version of what "Public transport" is???? The post we were discussing regarded transit systems not Public transport.
One of these things is not like the other...one of these things isn't the same.....dee dee dee dee.....
Roads certainly are transit systems Mikey.
Sheesh
Can't believe I'm explaing this to a guy who sleeps with a toy bus but.....yes, roadways are in parts of or in whole, a transit system. They fascilitate "transiting" people and goods from one place to another.
Huh SteveNC?
Public Transit Systems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Transit
Don't know where roadways come in
More than slightly out of touch.
"As you are well aware, NO transit system in the entire world is self-supporting. Just like your "self-supporting" "never-using-tax-dollars" roads. Nice try though."
Got news for ya bud, unless you are somehow redifining "transit system" but there are several public roadways in this country that were constructed without tax dollars and are not only self supporting but....making a profit. I've worked on several of them. Try CO, TX, etc. More coming too. Light rail on the other hand, NEVER covers its own costs without huge tax subsidys. And were not talking about user taxes such as fuel taxes, car registrations, etc. Light rail robs the property taxes of people who will NEVER use light rail. There have been studies performed that show it would literally be cheaper to provide light rail users with small cars.
Light rail cannot be routed along the Elizabeth shoreline
Mayor Fraim's comments on routing the LRT along the Elizabeth is soo stupid, I felt like a moron just reading the latter part of the article.
- Doing such would require a lot of trestle be built, which requires much maintenance, which equals $$$$$ in inspection costs per year.
- The trestle would block access to the Norfolk Southern coal docks.
- Rich folks in Larchmont would have the waterfront views wrecked by having a trestle built across their shoreline.
A better idea mentioned was mentioned by a previous post...follow the old N&W Fort Norfolk railroad spur to Lamberts Point (which is now a bike path) and bridge over NoSo's yard to Powhatan Ave and cut over to Hampton through ODU someway. But you can bet that the most insane and expensive route will be chosen.
$300M for Jordan Bridge
Yeah, $300M is a lot for a short two-lane bridge, even if it is a complex drawbridge. However, according to VDOT and city engineers at a public hearing, $300M was a rough estimate basically pulled out of the staff's hind parts when politicians demanded a cost on the spot without any engineering being done. Skanska is sort-of right...the structure alone will cost $120M. (Fraim, $100M...you just got low-balled, since their engineers know you're ignorant anyway.) But the Portsmouth side is a massive EPA Superfund site that VDOT would be required to clean up for the approach roads to be upgraded sufficiently. EPA Superfund cleanups have easily exceeded $1B and the environmental cleanup would cost as much if not more than the bridge. Also, the roads in Portsmouth would need significant upgrades, for there is no direct connection to I-264. For 7,000 cars a day, it just doesn't warrant replacement at the potential cost. If anything, another tube (2 lanes) should be added to the Downtown Tunnel.
The Jordan Bridge is DEAD, and Paul Fraim needs to butt out and stay in Norfolk.
VBTA/TLP
As you are well aware, NO transit system in the entire world is self-supporting. Just like your "self-supporting" "never-using-tax-dollars" roads. Nice try though.
OK, Mr. Ragsdale
I looked at the HRT "budget" as you suggested.
Fares make up only 22% of the operating costs of the system. The other 78% is subsidy taken from the taxes of motorists and taxpayers in general.
To succeed in the real world like the private sector businesses who bear a large share of your subsidy, you would have to raise fares fivefold without losing any ridership, which is hardly likely.
Light rail will be even more of a money pit.
And it isn't even "green" as light rail uses more energy per passenger mile than compact cars. It would be cheaper for the taxpayers to simply give all the regular riders a small car and and better for the environment as well.
Aalto
Ever since you lost your Silverleaf - Downtown Norfolk Express (and no I'm not referring to the 960), all you've ever done is whine and complain. Try and be productive. Here's an idea: try Light Rail in other cities that have nothing but successes (oh wait: you're too proud to admit it). Ever tried Googling for it? Also, how do you know if something's going to fail if it hasn't opened yet?
The good folks at Skanska
had to have had a hard time keeping the smiles off their faces and the giggles to a minimum during that meeting with Fraim. I can just imagine the laugh they had with that one in the office after Fraim waddled out.
"Yeah Paul...sure. I mean, we hadn't thought of throwing in a $300M bridge but we will certainly consider it. Of course. So, how are the wife and kids doing? Good...good.....oops.....well look at how the time has slipped...nice talking with you but we have to go. Stay in touch and we'll have our people get back with your people on that other deal." snicker, snicker.
Truth
And where can the truth be found about the cost to the taxpayer for the tide of failure? Or is HRT and norfolk afraid to make that public?
HRT Budget
HRT's Budget for 2007 - 2009 as well as Financial Audits for 2000 - 2007 can be found at http://www.gohrt.com/abouthrt/publications.html
Michael Ragsdale
Hampton Roads Transit User Citizen's Advisory Committee
$300 mil to replace the Jordan bridge ? - that figures
As someone that has lived in Chesapeake since long before Chesapeake was even thought of, I miss and long for the days of Norfolk County. We had new bridges, new schools and new roads everywhere with very low taxes and very few people. A bunch of nitwits decided to form Chesapeake because they thought they had better ideas than that. Sure they did.
I am confident that nearly all the untold dollars of toll money taken in on the Jordan bridge while Chesapeake government has been in control, was surely misappropriated or wasted. I have no doubt about it because Chesapeake can't even repair a fairly NEW bridge that was poorly designed in the first place by it's own engineers, in a reasonable amount of time. Witness the overpass repair at deep creek which has actually been in process since VDOT started rebuilding the entire portion of I64 at the Battlefield and Greenbriar interchanges. Looks like even old VDOT will finish first.
Light Rail extension to ODU, NOB
The only logical route for extending the light rail to ODU and NOB is to follow the bike path from West Ghent to Redgate, elevate it over the Lamberts Point rail yard, go down the middle of Powhatan Ave to a new bridge across the Lafayette River. However, this will never happen because it would have to go past the Mayor's house and the Norfolk Yacht Club.
say what?
I'm not sure what's more bizzare: The mayor of Norfolk calling for the replacement of a bridge that's not even in his city, or his idea to extending the light rail into the Elizabeth River.
The HRT "Budget?"
Has anyone ever seen it? Will the VP ever obtain it and publish it? Where does its funding come from? Where does the money go? I'd love to see how much a single "ride" actually costs. I've often maintained that it would be more cost-effective to lease a fleet of stretch limos and take the riders where they need to go in them.
tolls?
where is the toll money that was collected from the now defunct bridge?
Just make sure there is a
Just make sure there is a $13 million bike path included in the new Jordan Bridge. Heaven forbid the bikers cannot get between ptown and chesapeake.
Let fraim build it
That norfokk mayor can sure come up with loads of ideas on how to spend other cities and state/federal tax dollars. Well, if fraim wants a new bridge, let fraim and his norfolk taxpayers pay for it. We are already paying millions for his tide of failure, of which neither norfolk nor HRT will admit or reveal the waste and over budget cost.
Paying For It!
Everyone always goes crazy when someone talks about raising taxes. No one like to pay taxes but everyone wants bridges and roads that work.
Paying a toll is the fairest way to pat for the bridge. It funny that some one who can't afford the toll would drive ten miles out of the way and pay the cost of gas instead. That is not a good argument for not using a toll. How about someone who never will use the bridge why should they have to pay higher taxes.
All contracts should be limited on costs over runs. It seems that every government contract has always over runs that usually exceeds the cost of the contract. In this time of debt crisis people need to keep an close eye on these things. There one of the reason we are facing a budget crisis. Time has come for accountability.