A state agency wants about $7 million in safety improvements added to Norfolk's starter light rail-line to enhance communications and the security of street crossings. Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation officials said the system, now under construction between the Eastern Virginia Medical Center and the Virginia Beach city line at Newtown Road, is safe and meets federal standards.
However, in a draft report dated Oct. 23, the agency recommended changes to improve how well the system will operate and respond to emergencies.
Suggestions include upgrading the communications and train control networks, installing flashers and gates at all street crossings, and incorporating a public address system, variable-message boards and emergency call centers on station platforms.
It has not been decided how the improvements would be funded if Hampton Roads Transit and the city of Norfolk agree to them.
HRT leaders said the project is already behind schedule and running over its $232.1 million budget but have not released numbers.
Some City Council members wonder why the state is asking for changes a year after federal transit authorities approved the plans and granted the majority of the project's funding.
"I'm a little shocked to hear at this point that someone is saying that what we're doing is not good enough," Councilman Barclay C. Winn said. "Why did they not weigh in on this long before now?"
"I would like some serious discussion before we spend any more money," he added.
Vice Mayor Anthony Burfoot wants to know why the measures were not included in the original plan if they are necessary.
"We need real answers, real discussion and real closure on this," he said. "At this stage of the game, we should pretty much know what this project is, how much it costs, and what additional resources we can anticipate from the state and federal governments."
Norfolk is contractually obligated to cover cost overruns in the project.
Mayor Paul Fraim said he wants the state's recommendations included in the project and wants the state to share in the costs.
Both Fraim and Councilman W. Randy Wright note that industry leaders are re-examining rail safety features after a deadly commuter train accident in Los Angeles in September. The agency that runs Metrolink there last month approved about $12 million in safety upgrades similar to what is recommended for Norfolk.
"As we learn more about the experiences of other systems... we should come back and revisit these safety features," Fraim said.
"If we can do this, then I'm all for doing it," Wright said.
Michael Townes, HRT president, said most of the recommendations were part of the project early on but were eliminated to cut costs in order to qualify for federal funding.
"We don't take exception with the DRPT's work; the list of items is very logical," Townes said.
"I would say they are nice to have, but they're not required. We received safety clearance from the Federal Transit Administration. The railroad itself could run safely as configured.
"But if you're building a railroad that will expand and talking about having a high-quality system, then we have an obligation, and it's in our best interest, to consider these things strongly."
Part of what's driving the recommendations is Virginia Beach's new interest in possibly extending the line into the resort city, said Matthew Tucker, director of the state rail department.
"It's not just how the project looks today, but also the region's plans for future extensions," he said.
"The project is fine and will be safe, but as it extends farther and you operate the trains faster, some things are needed to help manage the operation and not have accidents," Tucker said.
Townes said officials of his agency and city and state transit leaders will evaluate the suggestions, their costs and funding scenarios.
Meanwhile, state Del. Paula Miller, D-Norfolk, said she is concerned about the potential for "runaway costs" and asked the City Council to appoint an independent panel to monitor spending on the project.
Fraim said he needs to know more about Miller's request before responding.
Debbie Messina, (757) 446-2588, debbie.messina@pilotonline.com
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the truth of the matter is
The truth of the matter is $7 million now and how much more a little later?
more of the same
Bottom line is that the area has changed and is overpopulated, and the rail is necessary. The problem in Virginia Beach is that it is still spread out, people can afford to continue to use their automobiles despite the inconveniences and this is an issue that doesn't affect them directly. They don't want to go to Norfolk, or any of the other cities as everything is right there. It's just getting across Virginia Beach, as big as it is, that is an issue but other than that this is just an answer to an inconvenience. Now Norfolk on the other hand, is land locked, and you really need to get people off the roads. But Virginia Beach and Norfolk making it easier to get from one city to the other is something that just is not going to happen any time soon. If someone wants to come from Suffolk to go elsewhere in South Hampton Roads they'll just drive. Isn't that part of the appeal of Suffolk anyway? It's like cities in the Shanandoah Valley but is close to a large metro. But despite however much it may cost, what pain that is going to cause us, it needs to be done if people continue to live in one city and work in another. Norfolk should just be the beginning of what this rail co
let me get this correct
urbanbackwater I think is a bit misunderstood. you're talking about the perception of this being yet another step towards the overpopulation and high density cities of the North not so much your own personal opinions towards light rail. people may see this as what happens when Northerners move to the South but the truth is the area is becoming overpopulated and does need real public infrastructure solutions. whether it be those from the Northeast or the Midwest moving here or those from elsewhere in the South, that should be a non-issue. that shouldn't be a Northern/Southern/regional issue. speaking of building one highway over another that's been done in a lot of cities. yet a lot of those same cities still have light rail or subways, in fact NYC itself has a lot of elevated highways as well as depressed higways that tunnel under the city. in cities like chicago the highway goes in through the buildings in some places i'm not really sure where your professor was coming from it sounds like an oversimplification. you would have even more highway, just in higher density because they overlap, and that concept has been taken to extremes in Boston only to collapse onto someone p
where is mr wright?
He's sitting in the Thirsty Camel chatting with Ronnie Boone about extending the Light Rail to Ocean View, and the taxpayers pay for it.
Progressive South we are not
Yes, I'll conceed that great light rail systems DO exist in the South, but to compare progressive, capital-rich Southern cities like Atlanta, Houston and Charlotte to HR is just as rediculous as comparing HR to NYC or DC/NOVA. But railed transit is relatively new to the South, but has been a staple of the North for a long time, you have to admit. It's just that working out here in Suffolk, there's a lot of old rednecks out here complaining their way of life is "being hijacked", and Northern transplants saying "traffic...tunnels...this isn't why I moved down here..." BTW, those Southern systems were fiercly oppossed because of their departure from the traditional Southern approach towards transportation, but came to fruition anyway. Both have well exceeded expectations, but I won't hold my breath that the same will be true here. For the sake of the region, I hope the nags (including myself) will get egg on our faces about LRT being a waste for HR. :P
Perspective
Even with projected overruns and the $7 million DRPT wants, Norfolk's Starter Line will be about $36 million per mile:
1. $4 million per mile less than the national benchmark for light rail.
2. Far less than the $69 million per mile cost of the 1999 proposal.
In addition, Virginia Beach should be under $40 million per mile when you look at where some of Norfolk's money is being spent.
Finally, light rail "Yankee"? Try Charlotte, Dallas, and Houston.
fad
LRT is a fad just like traffic circles and Town centers. City and state projects are subject to fads like everything else is. Regardless of the actually utility of such a project, Norfolk wants LRT so they can say they have it. The design firms and contractors want to build them so they can say they have. Everyone wants to build them because the huge sums of money!! Millions!! The few people that don't want them, because they realize this, don't matter because the vast majority are guided by their feelings and not by reason.
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over” -Goebbels
ok...
A few comments:
1. On buses: Empty? Not in Norfolk! Go Downtown to the transfer station and watch them turn people away because there is no more STANDING room.
2. Someone said the MagLev would have been better? Have you seen the MagLev we have? Its at ODU and it failed.
3. Cost Overrun? This should not be an overrun. The state needs to cut a check or GTFO!
4. For that guy that said something about mass transportation being Yankee. WHAT? What about Atlanta? Thats a pretty Southern city and they have a great train system.
5.this overall article: the light rail meets federal standards. Norfolk needs to tell the state to send the check or GTFO!!!
Norfolk, Don't Forget...
Your council member Randy Wright has pushed this the hardest. How has he escaped notice in this discussion? I don't hear his rhetoric now that the picture isn't so rosy. Where are you now Mr. Wright?
STREETCARS & LRT
Ironically, about sixty years ago the Norfolk City Council ordered VEPCO to cease all remaining streetcar service, much of which was handled by second-hand rolling stock. Today, the City of Norfolk has been the catalyst for the now under construction LRT line. Perhaps not widely known is electric cars once served Virginia Beach [and Fort Story, as well] from/to downtown Norfolk over the same right-of-way as the Norfolk LRT line will follow east of downtown. One thought....an LRT operation for VB surfaces nearly every ten years; the 1989 and 1999 proposals were negated. Now it is almost 2009, and here we go again!
Reality?
About 400 million. That's reality. Even the Feds wondered how Norfolk could build LRT so cheaply, but they gave them the money anyway. Why not? Norfolk is on the hook for the overruns. HRT is free and clear. That's what happens when you trust someone to do a job when they don't have skin in the game.
STL MONEY PIT
I've been commenting on light rail in St Louis.
Its a money pit with cost overruns.
Now, there are going to be service cut backs.
Hundreds of millions in overruns.
Either pull the plug and get rid of it or pay BIG TIME>
>
OK, a bit tonned down...
My previous comment got blocked for being too blunt... :P
Pilot, I like railed transit, especially rapid transit systems in NOVA/DC and NYC as well as the light rail system in Jersey City (Hudson Bergen Light Rail). But Hampton Roads is nothing but a backwater trying to be a city, but alas, it is not a city, at least compared to any REAL city. My prof back at ODU for traffic engineering said all mass transit systems are $$$ loosers, only NYC "breaks even". He said that in HR we'd be better if we double decked all major freeways to provide 12 lanes in each direction. It sounded ridiculous but he might be right.
Light rail will fail only in Hampton Roads, and succeed elsewhere because we are simple coastal folks who know nothing about how to plan a proper rail transit system, and HRT and the individual cities are about as experienced as a dorky 16 year old trying to get to second base. :o
To sell the light rail idea
I believe inorder to sell the light rail idea to the public the original estimates were stated at a much lower than real dollar amount. Now we are seeing reality.
Great idea, poor execution
I think LRT is a great idea and if worked right, will be of great benefit to the region. The problem is, it apparently wasn't fully planned out. Because of that, we are seeing more problems and more cost overruns, which makes those that worked on the planning of it look pretty stupid about now. The people of Hampton Roads will only put up with so much of this before they start rejecting the expansion in ways that would really make LRT effective.
With Kaine at the helm
Kaine HOPEs the state gets this correct. HOPEfully they will do what is Right. There is no HOPE that the state and city governments will do what is the best and right for the tax payers. Lets HOPE we get the bums voted out. After tall the promises this last election I think next time we will see real CHANGE and the president on down will not be at the helm after that. You would figure there would have been signals at a minimum at all streets. Unbelievable just unbelievable
Has there been anything
built in the Hampton roads area that didn't have a major cost over run... Is it me or are we being constantly bilked for money. What ever happened to a contract is a contract!!! I can see the kid who mows my grass walking up to me and telling me that there was a cost overrun and I have to pay double...This is the basic cause of the economic failure we're seeing nation wide. No one has enough brass to make these contractors, who bid these jobs, hold them to what the contract is bid at. If you have cost over runs, tough, you need to hold your suppliers feet to the fire or get your workers to work harder.
Light Rail
We should all rail against the Light Rail!
Tabor; Ditto.
Norfolk has bet a lot that VABeach can be conned into this fiasco so that MORE money can be gotten for the Rat Hole!
When I was a kid, Norfolk had a great light rail system that was called Street Cars.
Norfolk decided that light rail was no good, and that they needed the stinky busses that few rode then or that now run empty or close to empty.
What a waste.
They (street cars) went everywhere and were pleasant to ride on.
Quiet (relatively)and run on Electricity; VEPCO.
Heated seats for the winter and big windows to open in the summer.
Nothing like getting on the Street Car and going to Willoughby Spit and back to Norview to cool off in the summer.
All Gone like the buggy whips and ice wagons.
I've said
this many times before.....HRT is beholding to no one....they do not have any incentive to show a profit...they just ask for more money....go out a watch a bus stop for an hour....you'll never see a bus even half full...I say when the buses are used to a break even point, then build the RR...didn't we have rail tracks in the streets 50 years ago....lets not go backwards
Jayd
Do some research. Look at Light Rail in other cities and see the figures, costs, etc. and then tell me how great it would be for us. We are not an urban city and based on the layout of the area, it probably won't ever be, and quite frankly, who wants VB to become Washington DC or NYC? I moved here from New York to escape the city life with the huge tax burdens and REAL traffic congestion, and if we end up dropping a half billion dollars into this boondoggle, we will still have traffic issues and our taxes will be much higher. We need to fix some of the traffic problems, but Light Rail is not the answer.