Light rail's success outshines woes, Charlotte exec says

is the way 2 go. Circumvention of the failure of "Massive Resistance" is why the Beach & Chesapeake were created. "White Flight", from Norfolk & Portsmouth, into the Beach & Chesapeake, caused the early explosion of growth. It's true some population growth came about due 2 base closings elsewhere, later on. However, if 1 researches the continued loss of population of Whites from early suburban areas of Norfolk & Portsmouth, 1 would see indicators that Whites were still fleeing the cities, well into the late '90s. Movement into the suburbs, nationwide, gained momentum at the end of WW11, as vets used the GI Bill 2 purchase homes. Cities that became less attractive 2 suburbanites are now becoming attractive, again, for the reasons people had moved 2 cities before the suburban explosion. Culture, conveniece, etc. Have a good 1.

I am very aware of the regions history. Virginia Beach and Chesapeake have become what they are due to the military, not white flight. The bulk of this areas people moved here inthe 80's after other bases were shut down and the people were sent here. In the 60's, 70's, and 80's suburbs became en vogue across the country. While part of this can be attributed to white flight most of these people moved outward for the chance to live the American dream of owning a home with a yard for the dog. The cities had were failing and becoming less attractive. Now to get back to the subject, we need trains. Regardless of the rhetoric on cost per user, the trains are cheaper than roads and other costs associated with cars.

Mass transit is the way to go. You have to start somewhere. When you look at the Washington DC METRO the area is not as big as it is because of luck. Having a rail system that carries nearly one million people a day helps out enormously. This is a system that spawns more businesses and growth. Not to mention helps relieve the traffic woes. When the system first started there was one line. The red line from Rhode Island avenue to Farragut North ( Only 4.6Miles). Now the system has 5 lines and over 106 miles combined. Now they are doing a project that will expand it all the way to Dulles Airport.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metro).

In order to make progress it takes time. Better to be in the game early than later. This is something that will benefit the Hampton Roads as a whole. The region needs to come together as whole city to be taken seriously by people who want to invest in the region. The region has a lot of potential. I feel that the tide is a good start if handled correctly.

To add onto AlanB's fact about Virginia Beach's density. You have to take into account almost half of the land is below the green line in pungo and blackwater, where development is restricted...so VB is actually a lot more dense many people realize. All of the Naysayers know they lost the fight and they are just mad, haha.

had the nickname "Little New York", for decades. Reasons were, 1 larger city, with racial, ethnic & cultural diversity, "surrounded" by smaller cities, counties, suburbs & ex burbs. NYC'S mass transit system was largely in place, throughout the region, as city dwellers moved out to more remote areas of The Bronx, Queens & King counties. These lines, rather, subway, bus, or light rail, were more easily extended due to this fact, as migration moved out to Nassau & Suffolk counties. Mass transit, of many types, can & would work well in Norfolk & the entire Tidewater area. As more people move here from areas where people only drive if they're going out of town, more people will be ready to use mass transit to do much of their getting-around, in Tidewater.

but by the time we decide we really need mass transit, it will be too late.
We put in water lines, sewer lines, roads all in anticipation of growth.
Mass transit is, for all intents and purposes, is another public utility and should be treated as such. Police, Fire Departments, Health Departments, water lines, sewage treatment are all necessary for a healthy and thriving community. Transportation is just as vital. We have to start somewhere and, with good planning, we can include Portsmouth, VB, the Navel Bases, Town Center, etc. But it will take decades, whether we start now, or 5 years from now when traffic is at a standstill.

was in line for a mass transit system, with a large bulk of the funding required, coming from the feds, over 30yrs ago. The leaders of the Beach were part of the reason that idea was never implemented into reality. The idea of a merger, of the entire Tidewater area, was often discussed, decades ago. Beach leaders were instrumental in blocking that idea's fruition. Monte Carlo style racing, the NFL, NBA, etc, all had genuine interest in this area, in the '60s & '70s. The same group of leaders help put those ideas out to pasture. We need to come into the 21st century. Easing our traffic flow, through light rail, bike lanes & trails, pedestrian friendly development, etc, is a start in helping us reach the goal of making this area an even better place to live & visit.

The distribution of jobs and bedrooms is very different, and not as favorable for mass transit.

Further, Norfolk has plenty of failed public/private development space for parking.

in my comments, concerning the history of this area, then 1 sees actuality. Yes, 1 of the primary reasons that the small town of Va. Beach, was merged with Princess Anne, thereby creating the new "city" of Va. Beach, was to circumvent the failure of "Massive Resistance". The same is true of the merger of the small city of South Norfolk with Norfolk County, thereby creating the "city" of Chesapeake. "White Flight" occurred throughout the USA, for yrs. Are some of you really that uninformed on recent history? Henrico County"s population grew, due in large part to "White Flight" from Richmond. These are facts. They are offered within my comments simply as that, no more, no less. I lived in Manhattan, worked a high paying white collar job. I rode the sw daily, to work & play. Saw wealthy celebrities, using mass transit, daily.

AH HA!, now we come to the real motivation. Charlotte spent $465 million for its toy train, but this is supposed to be OK because of $1.8 Billion in transit oriented development. So many fallacies in a single sentence.

First, the assumption is that this development would not have occurred without transit. That is false, the area was developing anyway, the transit availability at most determined the precise location of the development, and thus who would profit from it, but it did not create the need for growth. Second, the benefits did not accrue to those who footed the build. Taxpayers were forced to pay for it so a select few connected individuals could profit. In the private sector, this is called extortion.

Finally, the assumption is that this was the best use for that $465 million, that it could not have provided more public benefit if spent on something else,like roads and parking, or better, left in the hands of the taxpayers.

Have you never been to DC or NY? The mass transit in those places is a blessing. You will stay in your nice car, because 1) you won't move in traffic and 2) you'll never find a place to park for less than a decent mortgage payment. The naysayers for mass transit have their heads in the sand and hope that traffic will just, oh, I don't know, kind of get better.
NY's subway system was build as 2 different private enterprises, followed by a municipal system. Eventually the whole thing was taken over by NYC into the Metropolitan Transit Authority. A big reason for this consolidation was the redundancy of routes and difficulty of expansion since the 2 private companies were using different sized cars and tunnels. NY could not function without the subway/bus system. And there are a lot more than just the homeless and criminals. Unless you are wealthy enough to have a limo, you take mass transit to work, home, ballgames, shopping and theaters. It will not happen overnight, but eventually downtown businessmen will discover that hopping onto the Tide (when VB gets in the picture) for a meeting at Town Center is a whole lot easier than driving.

Good points Tabor, but not exactly correct. Roads are funded in part by appropriations from the general fund, and in fact, a major piece of legislation was introduced last year to fund the regional projects in part from revenue derived from the growth in the Port of Virginia, which in essence would be taking funds now sent to the general fund and sending them to the transportation fund instead. I wouold not object to paying a higher gas tax or some form or usage tax on roads and some of that money being used for transit, for it would benefit both the user of transit and the user of roadways to the degree that there are fewer cars on the road. I acknowledge that a combination of taxes and user fees will be required to support transportation in all of its forms (sea ports, airports, roads, buses, and bike trails) and that flexibility will be required to develop a package that will pass the Legislature.

Wm D Tabor DDS said: Roads, at least so far, have been paid for with User Fees, generally Fuel Taxes, and sometimes Tolls as well.
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First, the original push to start the interstate system was not paid for by gas taxes entirely. Second, in September Congress sent $8 Billion from the general budget to the Highway Trust Fund to keep it solvent. It will need another huge injection of cash next year too to stay solvent.

As for mass transit, 2.86 cents per gallon goes to mass transit. And that's a broad thing too, as it includes boats, buses, and trains. On the other hand, every gallon of diesel fuel that goes into a train engine also gets taxed at 24.4 cents. So Amtrak and most commuter RR's are paying into the HTF fund.

trubullitt said: If anyone has been on the rail in major citys the only people that ride the rail are homeless people and criminals. No tHanks! I will ride in my nice car.
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You couldn't be more wrong. Sure, if one looks hard enough one can find a homeless person or a criminal on a train. But that is hardly the norm. At best in the worst cities, maybe 2% to 3% of the total ridership falls into one of those two categories.

The other 98% of the people on those trains are commuters going to and from work, and even people using them for other real life purposes like shopping, going out to dinner, and other things. I know first hand having been to many cities in this country and Canada.

aalto said: I do drive about 2 miles to a park-n-ride, and climb on a brand new 40 passenger bus transporting about 6 people a day from VB to norfolk. What will LRT do better?
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It's a proven fact in city after city, that people, who won't ride a bus, will ride a train. This is why city after city is building or expanding light rail systems.

Since we're already on the topic of Charlotte, they have a circulator bus called the Gold Rush that runs downtown. Much of the bus route parallels the light rail. In the first year of light rail operation, ridership on the bus fell by 1.2%, and the bus is free. People paid to ride the light rail, rather than ride the free bus.

Wm D Tabor DDS said: So, Charlotte's LRT is successful. Does that mean it is paying its operating costs with fares and paying back the capital cost?
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No it's not. And there isn't a light rail system or any transit system in the world that does pay back its capital costs or cover its operating costs.

But then there isn't road that covers its operating costs or capital costs. There isn't a fire department that covers its costs. And there isn't a public school that covers either one too. Yet we still build those!

And construction people and other's still get rich off of those too!

However Charlotte did find that it costs them $2.70 in operating costs for an average ride on the light rail. It costs them $4.30 for an average bus ride.

aalto said: VB is too diverse and too spread out for any LRT mass traisit to work.
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Wrong! VB has a population of 435,619 which averages out to 1,712.7 people per square mile. Salt Lake City, Utah has a population of 178,858 or an average of 1,666.1 people per square mile.

Salt Lake City already has 3 light rail lines in operation, as well as one commuter line in operation. And they've broken ground for 4 more new light rail lines, as well as an extension to the commuter line.

So VB can easily support one light rail line.

I just told you how you would benefit, even if you don't ride it. Let me explain more plainly for you, the worried tax payer. Light rail cost Charlotte about 465 million, but already 1.8 billion dollars in (private) transit oriented development are announced. So if you are "squirrelly the plummer," you will probably get a job from one the new developments spurred by light rail, not to mention the new addition to the tax base created from that 1.8 billion in new investment will bring down your home's real estate taxes. The only way you will not be positively affected from this is if you do not work or pay taxes and can't afford to ride the light rail anyway. Light rail is an investment in infrastructure must like Eisenhower's Interstate system was in the 50's...don't worry, there were short sighted people around then too...Squirrelly!

Who will ride this amusement ride? Are we to lazy to drive 15 miles? Will you wait in more traffic to find parking to ride the rail? If anyone has been on the rail in major citys the only people that ride the rail are homeless people and criminals. No tHanks! I will ride in my nice car.

"By Tabor's requirement below, we would not have any road that did not pay for itself with a toll. "

Roads, at least so far, have been paid for with User Fees, generally Fuel Taxes, and sometimes Tolls as well. Only in the dreams of your buddies in the HR Partnership do they get paid for by general sales taxes and taxes on home sales and the like. But the users of roads do pay their own way, and then some.

Transit, including LRT, requires a subsidy of 60% to 80%, stolen from those same fuel taxes that pay for roads, to cover most of its cost. Fares pay only 20% to 40% at best. HRT is only 22% fare funded.

If a single standard were to be applied, fares would have to be raised enough to cover operation of the transit system and pay back construction costs over its life. That would make transit more expensive than taxis.