Light-rail costs pile up as more pilings are found in creek

You can't compare the Norfolk section of light rail to the Virginia Beach section. The space is already there and cleared and any rail bridges needed are already there. The only thing not there is the area's that have to be raised for traffic which will not be but a small portion of the track overall. Norfolk had a lot more difficult sections of track to lay and even find space for.

no this is different....a new blunder....let me guess, you want light rail...if the people managing this project were employed by a private corp....they'd be history by now...and that's exactly what needs to happen now...starting with the guy that runs HRT....he's not up to the job..then the leadership in Norfolk needs to go....it would also be interesting to know who this consultant is...and his connections to HRT, since they were so quick to defend them!

Traffic is not going to get better. Light rail is a great alternative and used in many metropolitian areas throughout the USA and the world. I used it extensively in Chicago. The obstacle in Tidewater is, you guessed it, water. That in itself is not such a big issue. When you throw in ship and barge movement then it starts to fail. We do need bridges and tunnels over those larger bodies of water. We also need light rail whether you like it or not. Once in place and the the dust has settled we'll wonder how we managed without it. Progression cost. I agree with the councilman about this oversight by the contractor. They should pay. It isn't like a hurricane blew those pilings in overnight. The ineptitude of those responsible for that survey and the arrogance of the HRT manager are astonishing. Maybe there should be yet another investigation into the flow of money or gifts from one to another here. Something smells fishy and it isn't the creek bed at low tide.

Lousy excuse. This one should be on the consultant who performed the survey (I work for a consulting engineering firm). And....after over 25 years in the marine construction business, I can tell you, the stage of the tide had nothing to do with this. You don't do marine surveys by looking at the top of the water. These would be easily identified with a marine survey using side scan sonar or even simple good ol soundings with a sounding line would have identified a problem. Just goes to show the level of ineptitude by both the City Management and the hired consultants. Anyone in management who would accept a visual marine survey performed by somebody looking at the top of the water is an idiot.

As with most Pilot articles, there is not enough information to draw any conclusions as to what is really happening here.

"Some of the piles may not be exposed, even in low tide,"

Well...were they or not? If they were NOT visible at low tide and were hidden beneath the muck, then how much would it have cost to have them all identified in a survey? How could they have been found? With ground penetrating sonar maybe? That would have cost a 1/4 million bucks no doubt. You pay to find EVERYTHING beforehand or you pay for changes afterward. It costs the same.

Anyone who thought that there would be no cost overruns on this project is delusional. It will be at least 50% over budget.

The betting pool, as suggested in another post, sounds like a fun idea.

What in the world has Michael Townes been smoking? "Unforseen conditions???" He doesn't blame the consultant?? This was literally a no-brainer for any engineer who knew what he was doing. I'm a licensed professional engineer, and if that consultant has a license, he should be be brought before the Department of Professional and Occupational Regulation for disciplinary action. Further, Townes should have had someone on his staff responsible for interfacing with the consultant, and that person should have asked questions about the report. Piles by their very nature are under things - you don't just walk out there and count them. It sounds like someone in HRT needs to get his walking papers too. What a bunch of worthless paper pushing bureaucrats! Let's get some qualified engineers in there and get the job done correctly!

A surveyor purchases Professional Liability (Errors and Omissions) Insurance for just such an occurance. Its a slam dunk and shouldn't even be an issue.

get low estimates so that the project can move on and then "fix" them upping the cost well beyond what would have been approved. This fiasco is wrought with examples of this principle. Fix the people involved and give them a new career choice.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure!

When looking for pilings in the water, you go at low tide. If you don't - you are looking for something else. (Like a low estimate, and a later opportunity for increased revenues.) That said, there will be more cost increases associated with this project. Contractors make their gravy from changes, so expect many. And government is the most desired client among contractors for good reason; private clientele is too careful and demanding of results.

Using this article as a forum to regurge all the same arguments for and against light rail is inane. I for one would like to discuss THIS particular error.

As a professional mariner, I know that what exists under the surface of the water is not readily seen. Case in point, the inadequate survey performed on the creek for the bridge. For a proper survey, the state of the tide would NOT have mattered - much. That's because some form of sonar (side-scan is best) should have been used to identify those obstructions even only a foot or so above the bottom.

My concern is that proper techniques were NOT used again. If they did the count at low tide this time, I'm betting there are MANY MORE pilings that still didn't show above the water's surface.

Maybe next time they'll hire a professional to do the job right the first time.

Tidewater is doing what happened in ST Louis Metro area.
Over run after over run.

A tax increase failed on the ballot and we have transit increases with cut backs in service.

And, now, they are going to put another TAX increase on the next ballot when they will spend money on the campaign for the lower turnout will pass it.

YOU'LL BE SORRY.

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If the design consultant had properly identified the exact number of piles in the beginning, the contract would have included those costs anyway...think before you spout off...this is just like the folks that could tell it wasn't gonna snow last Tuesday on Wednesday (after the fact)! LOL

Why does no one care when there are hundred-million dollar cost overruns on unneeded nuclear submarines?

In this case the consultants should pay for their mistake. Maybe they just misunderestimated.

Let me guess...this will be the EXACT same light rail Internet argument repeated 50 times on other articles.

A matter of public record that must not have been investigated previously. City attorneys, surveyors, engineers. Norfolk Southern would have old records, City Hall too but if it's buying the rights from the railroad, it should have been clear as to what those were. To remove or restructure, groundwork was not laid out obviously. No bonds posted for any future attention? Impact on the environment, rivers, etc? Landfill closings have to put up bonds for the future, why not here? Or did they just wash their hands of it and hand it over? Easy to pass the buck or the piling in this case!

and if you ever went to a meeting and asked any questions, you would feel like you were talking to Yogi Berra. I would like to know who in the world hired the consultant group that determined the number of pilings? The biggest problem that I have is the fact that every Light Rail project has had major problems in every city, and that we hired the same group who is doing this work, and they don't seem to learn a thing, and mostly because the weak councils just keep accepting their lame excuses and cut them another check. VB better not get on board this boondoggle unless they want to completely bankrupt their city.

This has already been included in the previous cost overrun stop complaining over and over. If you don't like the fact that norfolk may become a big city on the east coast than you can move to suffolk or smithfield or something. :) Oh and this is likely not going to be the only light rail line that will be constructed in hampton roads. This system will likely become regional so maybe you should just go to North Dakota.

This light rail project will see them same fate as those rediculous HOV lanes that VDOT has been shoving down our throats for how many years now. Yeah, sure am glad they spent all that extra money building that extra lane for one car every 30 seconds to pass you by as you sit in bumper to bumper traffic. This area is too transient with people having way different schedules and responsibilities to rely on mass transit from a certain point A to point B, with no options for the unexpected. But for some reason, all the leaders are continually supporting something that the public is telling them they aren't gonna use. I wonder why that is??

This project was low balled from the start to get funding. It is not a surprise and incidents like this will continue. Light rail is a farce, especially in Norfolk. Norfolk “officials” and HRT are not honest with the public. In Virginia Beach say no to light rail for a second time.