NORFOLK
It's legal to wear a gun on your hip in Waterside, a judge decided Tuesday.
After hearing more than two hours of testimony, a General District Court judge dismissed a trespassing charge against Dan Moore, a Hampton resident who police said was ordered to leave Waterside for carrying a weapon, and refused to leave.
State laws permit openly carrying firearms in public places. City officials contended that Waterside, though built in part with public funds, is owned by a private entity and thus is a private facility not subject to state laws.
Judge James S. Mathews did not agree. After hearing from six witnesses called by the city attorney's office, he dismissed the charges, ruling that Waterside is a public facility, said Stephen Merrill, a Norfolk attorney who represented Moore.
Merrill introduced evidence obtained through the Freedom of Information Act from the Norfolk Redevelopment and Housing Authority that from the time Waterside opened, "not one dollar in private money has been lost in managing the facility," Merrill said. "Clearly, it's a public facility."
Moore was ecstatic.
"I had a hard time sleeping last night," he said. "This has been a very stressful thing. It was a great relief to hear the judge dismiss the charges."
Moore had several previous run-ins with the Norfolk police while carrying a gun in a holster. After he was detained downtown in 2007 for standing outside the Bank of America building with a gun, the city paid him $10,000 to avoid a lawsuit.
In September, he was detained while trying to ride a Hampton Roads Transit bus.
A month later, after he and other gun -rights activists spoke to the City Council, he was arrested at Waterside. Moore said he will sue for the bus and Waterside incidents.
"The police think they can do this to me, but they can't," he said. "Someone has to answer for this."
Andrew Fox, who prosecuted the case for the city attorney's office, said the city disagrees with Mathews' decision, calling it "an erroneous application of the law."
Fox said the city can't appeal the decision, but added the city will continue to aid private businesses "in enforcing policies they determine to be necessary and appropriate to the safe and efficient operation of their premises."
Gun -rights activists celebrated the decision.
"This is another lesson to Norfolk that they need to worry about criminals and stop picking on law-abiding citizens just exercising their constitutional right," said Philip Van Cleave, who heads the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a gun-rights group. "The city is acting like a bully."
Merrill, who is based in Ghent, was more understanding. "It's shocking for people in a city like Norfolk to see people open-carry," he said. "Even though it's been the law for a long time, it hasn't been practiced here until recently.
"But it's surprising that the city has been so slow coming around on this."
Harry Minium, (757) 446-2371, harry.minium@pilotonline.com
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Man The "Antis are amazing in their Un-logic..
Let's take this post in several smaller doses...
"Seems to me that if you would just wear it concealed legally then the police and regular citizens would not have to put up with your ignorance."
1st, you cannot carry concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol. period. OC is the only option. Our hope is that thru more exposure people will stop being afraid of a piece of metal. It is better to fear a bad guy and be ready to take action. Is it ignorant to vote? Is equality of the races "ignorant"? Which other basic human rights do you advocate removing from your fellow man because they make you uncomfortable?
"...laziness, go get your concealed permit."
A CC permit is the goverment's way of imposing a fee on gun owners who wish to exercise their right.
Submitted by Mark Twain II"Secondly, how are police suppose to know that you are legal to have the firearm...?"
Because unless you are doing something else that is illegal, you ARE legal. How do the police know you aren't carrying a bomb inside your grocery bag when you are shopping? Should they stop everyone, all the time? This isn't nazi Germany and WE The People do not have to show ID at the whim of the police.
Gertz's little boys
Well Gertz, I never knew there were so many insecure 65 year old grandmas that feel that everyone who open carries or carries concealed is out to repeat Columbine. We also have read the same old comments from the same old grandmas that assume that exercising a right is irresponsible and childish. Talk about who is being juvenile. It boils down to what rights you approve of. Well, tough cheese Gertz. You lose. All the previous arrests have done is make the city of Norfolk and their police department look like a bunch of idiots and cost the taxpayers of Norfolk (hopefully you are one of them) for their arrogance as well as ignorance of the law. It has also strenthened the cause in the legislature as well to put a stop to thisnonsense. Police and the public have nothing to fear from armed law abiding citizens. The public have more to fear from 65 year old liberal grandmas.
I don't mind being called a
I don't mind being called a "little boy" or any of the other little jabs that Gertz like to throw at people like me who are just trying to exercise our rights in this free country of ours. I just pretend she is calling me a dirty negro because I just drank out of the water fountain that was meant for only her to use. I can see her calling someone a filthy homo just because they want to serve openly in the military. That chick that raised such a fuss about sitting in the back of the bus while Gertz gets to sit up front, who does that shick think she is? She makes Gertz uncomfortable so she better get with the program and forget about her rights! To the back of the bus you trouble making negro!
try carying in NYC
and see how far you get.
No one is twisting your arm
To stay at at an establishment, if you see a person with a .45 holstered to their hip.
My recommendation is that if you have a complaint, than the Pilot Online is where you should go, Entertainment Section, Restaurant Guide, there you can post a review about the establishment being "gun friendly".
I am sure the editors here would love to have your comments.
bad analogy, captnick
Carrying an UNlit match into a powder magazine is more like carrying a holstered weapon. The unlit match is no danger to anybody unless you light it. Similarly, a holstered weapon is no danger to anybody unless the guy carrying it unholsters and fires it.
The thing is that gun rights advocates primarily want to be able to carry their concealed weapons into restaurants that serve alcohol. The bill before the GA would prohibit people so carrying to consume alcohol. There's no reason why a person with a CCW permit should have to lock his weapon in his car - or carry it openly as the law now requires - just because the restaurant where he wants to eat serves alcohol. The visions of men swaggering into bars with guns on their hips are pure fantasy. Permitting CCW in restaurants would actually reduce public anxiety because the public wouldn't even know who's carrying. They don't now, but at least if CCW were legal some of them would be trained and licensed. As opposed to now.
The Right to What?
Carrying a gun into a bar is somewhat akin to taking a lighted match into a powder magazine. Sure, you have the right to see; but....
markk33831
I was just wondering where this place was that had this shoot out. Was it ever found out that these people were legal gun owners? Or were the just a bunch of thugs with a rap sheet so long that they lost their right to own a gun long ago? Point is, I don't consider a typical thug with a criminal record having any right to exercise their second amendment right because they lost that when they chose the life of crime. That being said do you think THEY are going to put down their arms in order to comply with the fact that it is illegal for them to have them at all?
stand corrected
Dr. Tabor, I stand corrected. I didn't realize it was legal to consume alcohol and carry a weapon, concealed or otherwise, because it's such a bad idea to do so. On the occasions I've carried overseas and had access to alcohol I refrained. Just seems prudent.
I agree with the bill before the GA (that Kane will no doubt veto). I have to laugh a little bit (or would if it weren't so sad) that people are against the very measure that would relieve them of their irrational fear of the sight of a firearm. I also can't wrap my brain around the idea that they feel safe because they believe nobody could possibly be carrying a weapon because it's against the law to do so. Somehow you or me legally carrying a concealed weapon is a bigger threat than a criminal illegally carrying. Chances are excellent that these same people who fear guns walk past people carrying concealed all the time - legally or otherwise.
Drinking and bearing arms.
There seems to be some confusion about the laws on carrying arms and drinking.
Currently, it is unlawful to carry a concealed weapon into a restaurant that serves alcohol, unless you are a policeman or Commonwealth's Attorney, in which case you can carry concealed and drink alcohol.
It is legal to OPEN carry in a restaurant and to drink so long as you are not legally intoxicated.(Though I make it a practice to not drink at all when carrying.)
That would not change with the proposed bill before the GA except persons with concealed carry permits would be allowed to conceal carry in restaurants BUT NOT drink while doing so.
twomiler2
Well, twomiler you continue to assume that anyone who opines on this blog pertaining to this subject, was never a LEO, or never been in the army or seen combat. You also appear to think it is OK for for Joe or Jane Schmoe to be executed in a parking garage if they were to encounter an armed person fully intending to kill them. After all, they haven't had the LEO training or been a NARC before, so therefore it's tough cheese and they should just cooperate and die. It's your choice to carry or not to carry, whether LEO or former LEO. What suits you doesn't necessarily suit me or someone else. Your psychological assessment isn't cutting it with me either. We will NEVER agree on this issue. Not even close. It is my sincere wish that Chet Szymecki and Dan Moore become filthy rich (courtesy of the city of Norfolk) and that the funds come out of the police budget. Mayor Fraim, Bernard Pishko, and Andrew Fox have tainted the character of these men simply for LAWFULLY exercising their rights. The NPD, and the city acted with malfeasance and total disregard for the law. Now it is time to turn the tables on these three stooges. Stay safe twomiler2 and wear your vest when you go out.
answers
That's because it's never happened. Just like all the anti-firearm people, just make things up to try and get your point across.
sad insecurities
I never knew there were so many insecure men that feel they have to carry a gun to feel noticed, important, or macho. It's very sad! I remember my brother when he was 4 playing cowboys and indians. He loved that gun and holster, but he grew up and didn't need his toys any longer. Gorwing up isn't difficult, and comes with many benefits......some of you might want to give it a try.
I read the same old comments from the same old people about guns and their rights. What they never want to talk about is that "right" comes with responsibilities, and parading around town with a gun on your hip is irresponsible, and so very childish regardless of "right".
I stated before I would like to see EVERY gun owner to strap them own and live with them day in and day out regardless of where they go in their daily travels. Maybe then the general public will see for themselves how juvenile these "little boys" look.
when / where
Mark, I have to doubt the veracity of your claim. When and where did this alleged shootout occur? I say I doubt it because that type of thing would be manna from Heaven for the Brady people and their ilk and they would have publicized the heck out of it.
In any even, is these people were carrying firearms and were drinking then they were acting illegally. In other words, there are ALREADY laws prohibiting the behavior you don't like.
It's never the gun you have to worry about . . .
It's never the gun you have to worry about but the person carrying it. I've walked out of places that had people who had been drinking too much that were exercising their 'right to open carry.' One place I left had a shoot out at it later between such customers. People carrying firearms definitely don't make me feel any safer. You'd think this was the wild west or something . . .
Rushing, half asleep,
I left an o out of phrase too bright.
It's Not
illogical to base 1's opinion on years of experience & working cases involving guns. Burglary isn't about getting juice, as a public jacking is. Keith, you're much to bright to compare a uniformed police officer, who's required to open carry on the street as part of his job, & is trained, to react to crime at a moment's notice, with "Joe or Jane Schmoe", who's carrying just because they want to carry. I never open carried a gun, while in plainclothes narcotics, the idea being as discreet as possible. I never carried a gun at all, while undercover, in narcotics, the idea being I was to appear as whatever the dealers expected, other than a narc. Many vets, at that time, became police officers, firefighters, postal workers & such due to the edge vets got, for job consideration, & the hours were such that 1 could use his GI Bill benefits to return to college, as well as get OJT from the VA. Have a good 1.
LawrenceCooper
I would like to thank Dan Moore, Judge James Mathews and Attorney Stephen Merrill for standing up for individual liberty. This won't be the first time that Stephen Merrill defended a constitutional amendment.
Merrill, has also in the past filed an Amicus Brief to the US Supreme Court during the infamous Kelo vs. New London eminent domain case. Unfortunately, the court went against our rights on that decision but, Justice Clarence Thomas's dissenting opinion virtually mirrored Merrills submitted brief.
SYNIVA INVESTMENT CO. 720-897-7619
Next headline will read...
"HAMPTON RESIDENT DAN MOORE SUES CITY OF NORFOLK FOR FALSE ARREST". Just wait - it's coming.
Saying that open carry
Saying that open carry incites someone to mess with you is the same bad logic as saying that you caused the burglary of your vehicle because you left your GPS or car radio in sight. That nice house you have just causes burglars to flock to your neighborhood. Blaming anyone for the problem but the person doing the crime is stupid. Wanting to protect yourself from someone who wants to take what you have without having to work for it should not be a problem for any law abiding citizen. Your right under the Constitution should not be a problem for the city. When they are,thank God for the people who are willing to stand up and say that is not right. They are protecting all of our rights.