Judge clears man arrested in gun dispute at Waterside


It's legal to wear a gun on your hip in Waterside, a judge decided Tuesday.

After hearing more than two hours of testimony, a General District Court judge dismissed a trespassing charge against Dan Moore, a Hampton resident who police said was ordered to leave Waterside for carrying a weapon, and refused to leave.

State laws permit openly carrying firearms in public places. City officials contended that Waterside, though built in part with public funds, is owned by a private entity and thus is a private facility not subject to state laws.

Judge James S. Mathews did not agree. After hearing from six witnesses called by the city attorney's office, he dismissed the charges, ruling that Waterside is a public facility, said Stephen Merrill, a Norfolk attorney who represented Moore.

Merrill introduced evidence obtained through the Freedom of Information Act from the Norfolk Redevelopment and Housing Authority that from the time Waterside opened, "not one dollar in private money has been lost in managing the facility," Merrill said. "Clearly, it's a public facility."

Moore was ecstatic.

"I had a hard time sleeping last night," he said. "This has been a very stressful thing. It was a great relief to hear the judge dismiss the charges."

Moore had several previous run-ins with the Norfolk police while carrying a gun in a holster. After he was detained downtown in 2007 for standing outside the Bank of America building with a gun, the city paid him $10,000 to avoid a lawsuit.

In September, he was detained while trying to ride a Hampton Roads Transit bus.

A month later, after he and other gun -rights activists spoke to the City Council, he was arrested at Waterside. Moore said he will sue for the bus and Waterside incidents.

"The police think they can do this to me, but they can't," he said. "Someone has to answer for this."

Andrew Fox, who prosecuted the case for the city attorney's office, said the city disagrees with Mathews' decision, calling it "an erroneous application of the law."

Fox said the city can't appeal the decision, but added the city will continue to aid private businesses "in enforcing policies they determine to be necessary and appropriate to the safe and efficient operation of their premises."

Gun -rights activists celebrated the decision.

"This is another lesson to Norfolk that they need to worry about criminals and stop picking on law-abiding citizens just exercising their constitutional right," said Philip Van Cleave, who heads the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a gun-rights group. "The city is acting like a bully."

Merrill, who is based in Ghent, was more understanding. "It's shocking for people in a city like Norfolk to see people open-carry," he said. "Even though it's been the law for a long time, it hasn't been practiced here until recently.

"But it's surprising that the city has been so slow coming around on this."

Harry Minium, (757) 446-2371, harry.minium@pilotonline.com

Posted to: News Norfolk

How to be civil in comments:

 No name-calling, personal insults or threats. No attacks based on race, gender, ethnicity, etc. No writing with your Caps Lock on – it's screaming. Keep on topic and under 1500 characters. No profanity or vulgarity. Stay G- or PG-rated. Read the full rules here.

Ah, justice sweet justice.

Ah, justice sweet justice. Two things NPD must fight to keep under control no matter what laws they break. Law abiding citizens with guns, and hula-hoops.

Drunks at Waterside

There is a lot a drinking at Waterside. This is a good thing. Alcohol causes conflicts. Guns resolve conflicts.

I'm Surprised It Took Two Hours

Everyone (except the NPD) could see that the arrest was bogus. I could be wrong, but arresting the same guy three times and having each one thrown out seems a little bit like, oh....harassment?

There was no trespass case anyway!

This article shows good spin for preemption at the trial; but I think the City's criminal trespass charge did or would have failed for other reasons, i.e., that no trespass occurred even if the incident took place on purely private property and a uniformed police officer did what that officer did without the owner or agent first issuing an order to leave. The police are not prison wardens who walk around society telling people what to do just because it might be a good idea.

Guns don't resolve

Guns don't resolve conflicts, people with cooler heads prevail and use their feet to just leave. Show me ONE, just ONE case where a law abiding citizen walked into a restaraunt in Virginia open or concealed carrying a firearm that has shot someone from a drunken conflict.

Why Judge Matthews is Norfolk's best GDC Judge

Talk to POLICE OFFICERS about this arrest. They hate it. I actually talked to one who said he would have refused the order to arrest this guy and face the ramifications after the fact. This was an order from high up and the officer had to follow up on the arrest b/c he was ordered to. Let's follow rule of law (like it or not) and go after the gang bangers and drug dealers. I'm signing up for the concealed weapon class next month so I can keep my .45 in my car and open carry around Norfolk so no one get's an itch to do something stupid.


Defense Attorney.

Guns are not the cause of the problem

As a concealed handgun permit owner, I am happy the Virginia Court got it right again this time. I grew up having used rifles, shotguns and other weapons to hunt and target shoot for recreation. I learned from an early age to respect a weapon and how to use it properly. I learned to respect others and their property.
I served in the military and used handguns, rifles and shotguns as part of my service. I have used handguns, rifles and shotguns for more than 40 years. I have never caused another person to be injured as a result. I hope I never need to. But if my family or I am under imminent threat, I will use any method available to protect them and myself.
Evil does not care what method it uses to kill. Evil people will strangle, shoot, stab, run over, bomb or even use airplanes to perpetrate their acts. There is no inanimate object that causes people to die indiscriminately. Whether it is bare hands, a gun, knife, bomb etc. It must be used with an intent to kill OR an act of mischief OR an act of negligence by allowing a child to have access to a weapon who does not know otherwise. The object itself is benign until one of those acts takes place.
Remember that fertilizer an

guns and their idiots

There are those that want to straddle

both sides of the fence so in this way it

becomes a change of the rules in the middle

of the game. Thats what the cities do, and

so does its employees. Thats why the police

shot its own. To claim that he was a cop, but

too he wasnt because he was in street clothes.

Entrapment same thing.

As far as those and their guns use them to clean

out your ears. The wax runs deep.

Guns at Waterside?

Too bad. I will definitely avoid Waterside and hope reason surfaces before these kooks do more damage.
Aren't they in $$ trouble already?

Another blunder by Norfolk.

Another blunder by Norfolk. Moore should settle for no less than $500,000 this time.
Maybe Moore will be the first passenger on light rail and will open carry.

if you don't use it you lose it

I don't agree with the man's choice to carry a gun in public. However if he has the right to carry it, let him. Its all about control. The government will intentionally break the law just to see of they can get away with it apparently. Funny thing is when they do it there are no ramifications to them personally. Again we are back to folks in the chain of command that think that the law is to be applied to suit their whims. You have a joint they kick in your door. You have legal item in your possession displayed for all to see but, it does not suit their agenda then arrest them. I do think that an officer should have the right to question you if you insist on displaying a gun. It should be incumbent upon the carrier to cooperate also. Without cause there should be no arrests. I personally find a whole lot of public behavior much more hostile offensive and threatening yet, no one ever questions that. Why do you suppose that is?

what a shock

Didn't see this one coming...

Armed and ready for the gunfight!

So ole Ringo thinks he is one cool dude with his 45. strapped by his side, ready for any gun play at the ole family restaurant. Ready and armed for any excitement that the town of Waterside wants to bring on. Heck, even in the old days Marshall Earp would make the folks check in their guns when coming into town. But then again they were much more civilized in those day. The fella at the bar looks like a lonely soul. Not to many people want to sit next to a loner packing a 45. I guess he feels that the big 45 will help him score with the ladies. Forget the charm, just macho em to death. Personally I would just gather my family and leave the place and the guy with the gun and just go home.


I've seen a benifit first hand.

In the late seventies, a friend and I use to frequent a donut shop late at night for coffee after going to the clubs. We would often see a group of hunters in there, two of which wore hand guns on their belts. One night a group of three guys in their twenties came in, looked around rather anxiously and then turned and left without ordering anything. Whitin fifteen minutes we heard a bunch of sirens and someone came in and said that a gas station a couple of blocks away had just been robbed. Obviously the hunters guns detered the donut shop from being robbed. Even though I wouldn't carry a gun myself, I think it's a benifit to have people carrying in the open.

As it should be

Too bad the city of Norfolk won't send the bill for this trial to the officer and his superior for their arrogance and stupidity. Open carry and concealed carry with a valid permit have been laws of the C of Va for far too long for them not to know this.

Really though? Do you think a law-breaker is going to mess with someone carrying a .45? Do you think they're going to start trouble anywhere in the vicinity of someone carrying? Firearms are not the problem folks! Criminals are the problem.

In many cases, the firearm is the equalizer, the difference between GUN OWNER and VICTIM. I, for one, am a gun owner. You sheep, whining for more gun laws and restrictions, and closed imaginary loopholes, can be the victims...

Another thought, if I may.

The NPD is just following orders, so I wouldn't begrudge them in the incident. To quote Andrew Fox, who prosecuted the case for the city attorney's office, "the city disagrees with Mathews' decision, calling it "an erroneous application of the law." Maybe the city should give Fox a two weeks notice. In this time of tight budgets, it sounds as though he is putting his own laws in place of city/state/federal laws. That could be very costly to the city, as I'm sure we're going to find out after Moore wins another lawsuit against Norfolk. The law may not be to Foxes liking, but it's the LAW, what part of that did he not learn in law school?

Chris33 and jwb

You need to put your emotional rants to bed. There were over 18 people with Dan at that restaurant, and we were all carrying. We carry for self defense. Do you only write comments or do you also READ the paper? There are many crime articles and the victims do not get to pick the time and place - how will you defend yourself, with your pen?

Not a gun rights argument

This wasn't a gun rights argument in this case. The argument was only if Waterside counts as a public place.

Thank You Judge Mathews! Not a drop of PRIVATE funds

have gone into Waterside and thus it is operated by government - that why it's failing - outright lies on behalf of the city of Norfolk - get riud of Fox and especially Pishco - they arre ignorant of the constitution and private rights - disolve NRHA - return Norfolk to the people! and we wouldn't have a deficit - Whenever the cookie jar of $$$ is empty, city officials just raise all the fees and assessments and taxes, screw the people and personal success. Thank you mr. cooper for standing ground -

to all gun advocates

I would like to see ALL gun advocates to open carry their guns every day where ever they go. I want hundred's of thousands of you to parade around the City of Norfolk to display your 2nd Amend. right. Go to work wearing your gun, go to the grocery store and department stores in all surrounding malls, and all restaurants/bars, and when you go to the bank or city hall. Show everyone YOUR RIGHT. Display your weapon with pride and your head held high.

Don't do it just for one day, but every day. You have the RIGHT, so show us your gun, because we are ALL looking forward to the day when all society will be walking around with a gun on their hip. Halleleuyah! Can I hear an AMEN?

Personal safety

I open and conceal carry for personal safety. Hoods pick and choose their time to victimize the citizenry. All they need to do is look around for a policeman, no policeman the game is on. Police are not everywhere. The supreme court continually concludes that they only person responsible for your safety is you. It is time that americans take that as a notice that you need to defend yourself. People who open carry or have a concealed carry permit are not the people you need to worry about. It is the hood, gangster or whatever that is carrying, ready to victimize anyone when they deem the time to be safe for them to carry out their dirty deeds. I suggest that everyone entitled to own a weapon purchase one, take a gun safety course, apply for a concealed carry permit and then carry it. Virginia would be a much safer place. It is time for the criminals to wonder if they will live through their next criminal action. It would be a real detterent.

THe Rule of law

It is the Rule of Law that makes civilization possible. Otherwise, we would be under the thumb of the first person willing to use violence to attain his goals.

But the Rule of Law must equally restrain the government and the criminal.

The harm which can be done by a criminal is relatively limited, but a government which will not submit to the law is of far greater danger, as history has revealed in far too many instances.

Norfolk's government, in particular, seems to see itself as above the law, and whichever side you happen to fall on on 2dn Amendment issues, a city government which will not obey the clear law of the State cannot be tolerated. If we allow the city government to use force against citizens contrary to the law, then that government is just another gang, dressed in different colors.


Andrew Fox sounds like a moron to me.

Let the city get sued again and he can defend the city again.

Which Army we're the 18 of you expecting

"There were over 18 people with Dan at that restaurant, and we were all carrying. We carry for self defense."

It was a political stunt. Self defense is a joke in this case and everyone knows it. 18 yahoos at hooters all ready to defend themselves against what? Silicone? Gun nuts would get more support from on the fencers like me if they weren't so hysterical and ridiculous. I know, I know. It's the principle of the thing . . . A principle that leads to provocation.

answered your own question

One thing that all the gun advocates have said in their posts' is: I have a concealed weapons permit or I'm going to take a gun safety course so I can get a concealed weapons permit. Seems to me that if you would just wear it concealed legally then the police and regular citizens would not have to put up with your ignorance. I'm all for gun rights and gun owners how about being a RESPONSIBLE gun owner and doing the right thing. There are many laws on the books that actually allow people to do some outrageous things by today’s standards, but people use common sense and do not do them even though the law says they can. Carry a gun, good for you, all law abiding citizens should, put it in the open where everyone can see it...laziness, go get your concealed permit. Secondly, how are police suppose to know that you are legal to have the firearm...is it stamped on your forehead??? They should stop in inquire about carrying a weapon in the open, that’s why they made it easier to carry concealed. Gun rights, great; keep fighting the little battles and you'll lose the war. Look at who is in control in the Federal Government, keep pushing though and you'll become anti-productive for your

another example

of the growing divide between the citizens of this city and the police department.I remember growing up here in the 60's and we thought of the police as people who would help if there was trouble. Now it seems police would rather arrest law abiding citizens than arrest criminals. I guess its easier than taking a risk, a criminal might fight back. I for one have called the police on several occasions in the past five years with pitiful results. My 21 y.o. son was robbed at gunpoint (the officer chastised us and didn't believe his story because he had not called that night (his cell phone was stolen!)and he was afraid to go out to call. Another time our garage was broken into and our property stolen. We found out some local teenagers had committed the crime, gave the responding officer the names and addresses of where our stolen property was (and many other people's) He declined to do anything at all but take a report to add to the statistics.) We decided to take matters into our own hands and took our property back by force. Point is...if the police don't care enough to do their job then law abiding citizens will HAVE to take care of themselves and thankfully we still have the right

Well said Dr. Tabor....

"When the people fear the government there is tyranny. When the government fears the people there is freedom." Little by little the rights guaranteed in the Constitution are being stripped away or distorted to the point that they are almost unrecognizable. Our forefathers must be rolling in their graves at the things that are happening in this country. The 2nd Amendment is what it is and the United States Supreme Court recently reiterated that fact. My congratulations go out to this man. Good luck in your future lawsuits against the feifdom known as Norfolk City Council!


Get your checkbook out city another 10k x2

Mark Twain

It is ILLEGAL to carry concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol. Mr. Moore was in Waterside because they were eating at a restaurant that serves alcohol. Open carry was his only legal option.

As times get tougher....

With the economy going south, more robberies and muggings will occur and with the cutbacks and strain on public safety, you will be taking on more responsibility for your own safety. Criminals do not give a dam about gun laws for themselves and prefer tougher guns laws for others since it benefits them, the criminals. Guns are called the Great Equalizer for a reason.

Mark Twain II

It is illegal to carry a concealed handgun into a restaurant that serves alcohol in Virginia - we specifically submitted a Bill last year, and again this year and it passed both the House and Senate - but Timmy Kaine vetoed it - so we continue to obey the law and open carry. Also, the 2nd Amendment has no provisions for concealed carry, in fact it was frowned upon and thought of as dishonest and deceitful. Open Carry is the purest form of the 2nd Amendment.

Mark Twain II

Surely you jest. Only in the movies have I ever seen a criminal openly carrying a weapon. If you're a convicted felon, drug dealer, ad nauseam you are NOT going to open carry. It's really that simple. I normally carry concealed so as not to fray the fragile nerves of the sheeple around me. However, there are other times that I will have my 45 on my side in plain view. It usually depends on the area and time of day. What you and so many like you fail to realize is the sheer number of crimes committed on a daily basis against unarmed citizens. Don't think, for even one moment, that the crimes reported in the media are the only ones committed on a given day. If you do you are delusional. For anyone that feels a LAW-ABIDING citizen exercising their LEGAL rights is a threat to them or their family, you are welcome to pack up and leave for another venue. I'll hold the door for you. Lastly, Norfolk needs to hire competent leadership in the PD and city lawyers that understand the LAW. It isn't open to your slanted interpetation as you see fit.

Is this necessary Mr. Moore?

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It appears that he is looking for trouble, what is the reason that he needs a weapon? He has already received a $10,000 settlement and he says that now he is going to sue again...what an idiot

more blaming inanimate objects

it's clear that Chris33 isn't a fan of personal responsibility. "Alcohol causes conflicts." Umm, no, people who abuse alcohol can cause conflicts. "Guns resolve conflicts." Umm, no, people who illegally use firearms resolve conflicts (unless it's a law-abiding citizen defending himself).

I have a picture in my mind of two bottles Miller Lite, something about a dispute over "less filling" and "tastes great." Then a pistol leaps out of a holster and unilaterally ends the conflict. Apparently the .45 thought "less filling" was right.

Passing a law to allow concealed carry in restaurants (currently in the Va General Assembly) would allow people to avoid scaring those with irrational fear of guns. Until then, at least we have the comfort of knowing that criminals are forced to carry openly when they dine.

easy money - ours

Mr. Moore baits the city, the city bites, Moore gets $10K. Mr. Moore baits the city, the city bites, Moore likely to get more of our money. Who's the idiot?

Very Proud Of Dan Moore...

Dan Moore stood his ground for his rights, and at the same time stood up for ours! He had to wait months to find out just what the cost to him would be, he could have end up with a conviction, fines and even lost his freedom.

Thank God the Judge applied the law! Dan won a victory, not just for himself...but for all of us. I also hope he follows this up with a civil suit.

Maybe this time Norfolk will 'get it', but I am not betting on it.

ps-Eating crab cakes at Joe's right after the decision came down, with one of my personal heroes, was a sweet meal indeed!

Dan does not bait anyone....

If you knew Dan you would know he would be totally happy to simply have his rights not infringed and to go on with life.

He risked a lot to stand up for his rights. How easy if he had not gotten a decent judge could this have gone badly? He risked his future and even his freedom not because he was baiting anyone, but because he would not let his rights be trampled on.

...and for that I deeply admire him.

It's unfortunate

Sadly, this just going to further encourage those wingnuts to recklessly agitate and antagonize our police officers and citizens with their reckless publicity stunts. While its all fun and games and quick buck to them now to toy with men in blue, its not going to be amusing when this finally escalates to a situation where their stupidity/machismo is misinterpreted as a threat and someone needlessly gets shot. Its not like nobody sees it coming.

Basic right

We each have the right to self-defense...even Mr. Moore.

One of the nagging things that has yet to be addressed is why was it just him that was arrested? I seem to recall there were many others in the restaraunt that evening.

"Mr. Moore baits the city,

"Mr. Moore baits the city, the city bites, Moore gets $10K. Mr. Moore baits the city, the city bites, Moore likely to get more of our money. Who's the idiot?"

Moore was with 18 other people. ONLY he was charged, the others were not bothered.

whats right is right.........

Sounds like Moore knows the law better than Law enforcement or they don't care and want to harass him because they believe they are the only ones that should carry a firearm. Look the 2nd was put in place for protection from the government!! Those that don't agree please place a NO FIREARMS IN THIS HOUSE sticker on your home.

Getting Robbed

Norfolk has more armed robberies than any city in southeast Virginia. Your chance of being a robbery victim in Norfolk is pretty good. It is only natural for a person to want to feel some degree of security when they walk the streets. This law is nothing new. The times have dictated a change in the way people feel and the amount of crime has caused people to react. I suspect that we would not see guns in the open if they would not restrict concealment in certain locations. Most would rather carry concealed when possible. As for the City trying to assert that Waterside is private property any moron can read the paper on a daily baisis about what the city is going to do with Waterside and conclude that was an idiotic response.

I think the point of this

I think the point of this open carry issue is the fact that you cannot carry a concealed weapon in an establishment that sells alcohol. The rocket scientist that made the comment about fearing silicone in Hooter's has never walked through the semi dark parking garages after an evening at Waterside. It's not "IN" waterside that we need to carry a weapon......it's the walk to and from your car that the extra protection is needed.

I would love to see the crime statistics in the city garages. Anyone know where that info may be found?

people open carry ONLY to support a macho ego?

As a permit holder, I agree that in this day and time that concealed carry is the most respectful, responsible, and law-abiding manner in which to carry. However, Va.'s current laws do not allow concealed carry in ABC-ON premises. Can any gun control advocate name a single incident in which a permit holder went on a shooting rampage? A single incident in which a permit holder commited a robbery or murder? You have a right to believe that people open carry ONLY to support a macho ego. However, the ability to conceal carry is being challenged just as well even if done so to respect YOUR fears. I have a responsibility to my family to protect them, not to adjust my lifestyle to YOUR fears. Permit holders DO feel entitled to carry unprovoked because we have already appeased the law by getting a permit and have attempt to appease YOUR fears of seeing open carry. Permit holders respect the law but will not submit to the officer whose restrained by criminal's rights to legally apprehend a criminal once the crime has already been commited.

Elect him to office!

I think Mr. Moore should be elected Mayor of Norfolk, or at the least, Chief of Police, he obviously has way more smarts than either of them. Keep on pushing your rights Mr. Moore, you are a true American Hero and and inspiration to all Sir, God Bless you.


"Until then, at least we have the comfort of knowing that criminals are forced to carry openly when they dine." LMAO... I hope you were being sarcastic! Criminals do not were holsters. Keep up the fight Mr. Moore and I as well as the VCDL will support you.

Mr. Pratt, a demonstration, not a stunt

I was at the city council meeting preceding Dan's arrest, though I went home to play with my grandchildren instead of going to Hooters. I was armed at the meeting as were many others. This was an assertion of our rights, not a stunt. Saying you have a right but not exercising it due to social pressures is meaningless. Rights not asserted become hollow and empty and fade away.

So, yes, we carried openly going to the council meeting to make a point. That is protected by both the First AND Second Amendments.

If you are uncomfortable with armed citizens present in spite of all the years of experience that shows we are no threat to you, that is something you should take up with a therapist. Your irrational fears are not a reason for me to surrender my rights.

Sorry Curtis but I have to correct you.

Dan Moore who is the subject of this article is a black man. An intelligent, and thoughtful man who knows the law, his rights and the rights of others. He has chosen to carry for his and others safety. Training and intelligence would prevent him from making the mistake that you try to paint happing. Please study,learn and practice gun safety and have firearms training before carrying a firearm for any purpose as well as before speaking or writing out of ignorance.

Submitted by Curtis J on Wed, 02/11/2009 at 12:54 am.
Leave it up to a white man who feel that he needs to walk around a city to prove a point and for no other reason, they (I believe in gun right nuts) know it scares other people. This guy goes to the gun club and talk about big bullets and big guns as if it means something. They had never shot anyone but I bet they sit around and joke about it, but it is their American right. I wonder what bubba would do if he was at Waterside or during Harborfest and some kid pulls out a glock and start shooting into the crowd, would he start shooting back? Into a crowd at the kid with the glock and hits someone just standing around. Go home cowboy before you hurt someone.

Who are you to decide

Who are you to decide if Mr. Moore should use a right and how he should use it? Your negative opinions regarding how a person should use their rights reflect your liberal/socialist elitism and that somehow you are the go to person for how and when we can use our rights.
Mr. Moore is entirely within his right to open carry and until the Norfolk city government recognizing the law and stops violating his rights he should continue to sue.
Isn't it wonderful when our judicial process provides truth & light onto areas that our politically powerful attempt to keep in the dark and wield only as its suits their purposes. I can see a smile on Thomas Jefferson's face if he were here to see this latest lost attempt by the city to squash a right and cover it up by denying ownership.
From what I read in the article it could seem as if the city attorney was not truthful regarding the city's ownership of Waterside. Perhaps it it's just they way I interpreted the article a d what was stated.

Why Norfolk?

Aren't there any establishments worthy of your gun flashing on the Peninsula?

To lisah11030 – Who’s the idiot?


If the Constitution gives you the right to do something and you do it does not make you an idiot. What makes you an idiot is if you disobey the law – i.e. Norfolk Police not enforcing the law – the Constitution that is… In the justice system, Mr. Moore now has the opportunity to recover damages from the City because THEY broke the law, not him.

Break – Is ODU a public place? Guess we can take a walk around campus with an open firearm to see how deep their pockets are! Can you say "Easy money"!


Funny how nobody is concerned about all the police officers who open carry. Oh, because they are cops? So what. They are just people doing a job. Some cops commit crimes and abuse their authority; they are not saints.

I equate Mr. Moore's actions with the freedom riders of the (race) civil rights era. Many ignorant people thought they were up to no good, and took extreme steps to stop them. Fortunately, they were committed to their goal and persevered. Who here will dispute their contribution to society? Now we have an ongoing battle with a much older civil right.

It is a sad time in America when people trust the government with guns but not citizens. The founding fathers of this great country would be crying, and planning a new revolution.

Mr. Fox is nuts

at best.

Mr. Fox says "Fox the city can't appeal the decision, but added the city will continue to aid private businesses "in enforcing policies they determine to be necessary and appropriate to the safe and efficient operation of their premises."

So basically, this prosecutor believes it is the business of law enforcement to enforce policies of private businesses. And the determination of what is necessary, appropriate, safe and efficient will be left to the private business. If McDonalds has a two catsup packet limit...by cracky...Mr. Fox will use government power to enforce it. The law be damned.

They used a lot of these policies until the early 70's to keep undesirable types out of lunch rooms and bus station waiting rooms etc...

What is the obsession of you people to rampantly violate the law? Is it just Norfolk?

When I go to a place for dinner,

that serves liquor, I leave my stepson (that's what my wife calls my carry piece) in the car. I hate doing that, but I think that most people aren't conditioned to seeing someone walking around with a holster and a pistol, out in clear view.
Maybe if I were in a group, I'd act differently, but one visible pistol in a room filled with kids and potentially emotional and self-righteous gun haters doesn't make for a pleasant evening.
It's funny, but I've lived here in Virginia Beach for five years, and I can count on one hand the number of times that I've seen people visibly packing a sidearm. I've seen a lot of "printed" t-shirts, but not out in the open.
So maybe this is "much ado about nothing" after all.
I'm just proud and grateful to live in a State that allows people the option of carrying, whether concealed or out in the open. I also wish that Tim Kaine would stop defying the will of the people, and sign the damned bill.


Hey RicknChes,

Yes you can open carry at ODU, and any other college in VA (VCU has an admin code restriction, but that I doubt will stand up in court). Unless you are a student or employee; college rules prohibit that, but all they can do is expel or fire you, not charge you with a crime.

For more info, explore:

www.vcdl.org Check out their letters section

www.opencarry.org FORUM tab


Everyone posting on this

Everyone posting on this board is using their right to free speach. For the people that want us to give up our 2nd ammendment right, why don't you give up your 1st ammendement right? That is the one a few of you seem to love the most. It is only fair for everyone to give up something. (note to Curtis the guy the story about isn't a good ole white boy please refer to the picture)

Thanks Paramedic7002

And to think that I wouldn't get anything from the Obama Stimulus Plan, heck all I have to do is exercise my 2nd Amendment rights.. At $10K a pop this shouldn't take long..


Yeah, I agree! Just because one CAN doesn't mean one SHOULD! Just because a black man CAN use a water fountain which was previously "whites only" doesn't mean a black man SHOULD use it! He has his own water fountain, right? We all know that demonstrating one's rights in front of those who are uncomfortable with it is provocation, plain and simple. Any black citizen should being saying to themselves right now... "And?" If you are uncomfortable with seeing a weapon it is YOUR problem, folks.

Reference to lisah1030 comment

How can you call Mr. Moore an idiot? To me it looks likee the city of Norfolk is the idiot , they continue to arrest him and he is within the law. Let me ask you this if you were going to commit a crime like rob someone oranything against the law. Which would you be the most leary of someone near by that is reading a newspaper or someone that has a pistol in a holster? Maybe it is a little extraordinary to see someone wearing a gun on their hip, but that is a right that each of us have. So as I see it we need to each make our own choice and let others do the same , within the law of course.

No Wonder Norfolk's Broke

No Wonder Norfolk's Broke... They gave this shakedown artist 10K ....wake up Norfolk...he's comming back for more. Now, it is obvious why this thug came all the way from Hampton to Norfolk to run his scam... Business as usual...

Anybody that refuses to

Anybody that refuses to accept the second amendment should also just ignore the first amendment and shut up. That would not be right though would it? Why do you think you can just pick and choose what rights your fellow Americans can practice? Typical liberal agenda, you think you are the moral compass and givin the chance you would wipe your backside with the very document that guarantees are right to tell you to shove it.


[Quote]Leave it up to a white man who feel that he needs to walk around a city to prove a point and for no other reason,they (I believe in gun right nuts)know it scares other people.[/Quote]

Didn't you look at the picture genius? Dan is black. In fact, of the 18 people openly carrying at Hooters that night, Dan was the only black man...and Dan was the only one the Police chose to harass about it.


Furthermore, Dan was on his way OUT of Waterside when the Police stopped him and WOULDN'T LET him leave. He was not "asked to leave" and refused, he was told "You can't have that in here". The Officer was incorrect and Dan tried to correct him. He did not refuse to leave, he was not belligerent or uncooperative...his only crime was to have the audacity to point out that the Officer was wrong.

I guess us uppity gun owners need to "know our place" when we're in Norfolk, huh?

"No Wonder Norfolk's

"No Wonder Norfolk's Broke... They gave this shakedown artist 10K ....wake up Norfolk...he's comming back for more. Now, it is obvious why this thug came all the way from Hampton to Norfolk to run his scam... Business as usual..."

Again, he was with 18 people for a common event. He was the ONLY person stoped. he was the ONLY black guy with 18 people who were also carrying.


Here it is Gertz.....AMEN and AMEN!!!! I hope that Dan Moore becomes a very wealthy man because of this. It's strange that the court would put Dan Moore under the jail had he been in violation of the law, but nothing ever happens to LEO's when they violate it. I thought ignorance of the law was no excuse. Apparently is is for the city of Norfolk and Chesapeake.

Only the black man gets arrested

18 people with legal guns, and only the black man gets arrested. This is the 3rd illegal arrest of this man. Would any juy not agree there is a pattern of discrimination in the NPD? I think the next settlement the city does in this case should require monitoring by an outside agency to halt any unconstitutional racial profiling. I think the next check Norfolk writes to Mr. Moore will me significantly larger than the last.

Waterside, "private" ?

When is the City of Norfolk going to make it's mind up on Waterside? Based on this trial they say it is a privately owned property but based on other article's they justify spending our tax money on someone else's property saying it is a City property ??. It seems Waterside is whatever the City wants it to be to justify the present situation they are faced with.
It seems some of our City officials forget who they work for and feel they can change and manipulate the rules daily for their own agenda.

Right to carry

I think in the city of Norfolk you should carry a gun. Look what the police did to the Hulu-hoop lady, you have to protect yourself from stupid people in uniform.

It's also shocking how many people do not know what their constitutional rights are. Can I suggest going to heritage.org and request a free pocketsize copy of the declaration of independence and the constitution? It makes for good reading and with all that is going on in the world today it is well worth having.

This guy is no idiot

$10,000 a pop. I am surprised more people don't do this. He has found an ingenious way to suplement his income by playing on the idiocy of Waterside security.

Go for it Dan Moore

In an ideal world (city), all legally qualified would carry guns. That would diminish the crime stats drastically.

If Mr. Moore gets stopped by a police officer for carrying legally just one more time, the police chief and the city attorney should be fired and sued personally.

And I also blame Mayor Fraim for his absurd, irrational, idiotic fear of guns shown at the first council meeting attended by openly armed, legally armed, VCDL folks. Let's get rid of "His Lord Mayor" Fraim now, just on general principle.

OK so I shouldn't have called him an idiot

I do believe that people should have the opportunity to own a weapon, my point is what is the purpose in taking them everywhere? Are you armed so that you can shoot robbers wherever you are? Are you going to whip it out and shoot dinner for the wife to cook up? I could care less if Mr. Moore is black or white, using that to make your point is unneccessary. Yes, it is your right just like I have the right to free speech. After reading all the pro-gun comments and the citing of the laws let me ask you this...why are you carrying a gun? Is it necessary or are you carrying it for intimidation?

Why carry a gun?

Not that a reason is required, I use mine for self defense.

LisaH, read the

LisaH, read the constitution, law abiding citizens have the right to keep and BEAR arms. If you dont like it, maybe you and Nancy Pelosi should put your heads together and change the rules!

Q-After reading all the

Q-After reading all the pro-gun comments and the citing of the laws let me ask you this...why are you carrying a gun?

A-It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

A2-Because a right unexercised is a right lost.

A3-We take personal responsibility for our safety and for the safely of our loved ones.

A4-Because when seconds count, cops are just minutes away!

A5-Luby's massacre mean anything to you?

Carrying a gun can prevent fatalities

OK lisah11030, what is the point of having a gun if you can't carry it? A lot of good it is to own a gun if it's at home (or in your car where it can easily be stolen) if you're attacked? Being female, I get the creeps walking through those dangerous parking lots at night. I decided to get a carry permit after the McDonald's massacre in 1984 where 21 innocent people were killed and 19 were injured. If just one person had carried a gun that day, the perpetrator could've been killed while he was reloading. It's obvious from your lack of understanding that you have never been trained in weapon use.

Lisah11030 – Here’s your answers


You’ve put forth many questions that indicate that you may not understand why many keep posting that this is simply an exercise of our Constitutional Rights. You don’t need a purpose or reason, you can because our Forefathers gave these rights to all American Citizens.

I understand that you maybe looking at this from a practical point of view, i.e. “…what is the purpose… so that you can shoot robbers… shoot dinner… why are you carrying… is it necessary… carrying it for intimidation.”

Ask yourself this question. Why do you exercise your 1st Amendment rights to free speech? Do you need a reason or purpose, is it necessary or are you doing it for intimidation? I say, speak on!

This is why I have a

This is why I have a concealed carry permit. So the idiots in this country won't freak out at the site of my right to openly carry or to be constantly harrassed by law enforcement who don't know the law. Maybe if Dan had been at the house of that 5 y.o that was beheaded last night we would be talking about what a HERO he was for saving the boy's life. 3 kinds of people in this world, sheep, sheep dogs and wolves. Which are you?


The point is that Mr. Moore exercised his GOD given/Constitutionally garaunteed right to bear arms.
Just as the Consitution & Ammendments stipulates your freedom of religion, of the press, expression, search and seizure, speedy trial, Confront your Witnesses; Trial by Jury; Abolished Slavery; Vote; Women's right to vote...doesn't mean we can't walk around in public with a sidearm.
You can't pick and choose!

Why do I carry?

You ask why I carry? You have no right to ask. I don't ask you why you use the First Amendment, it's your right!

Gun Nutz....

Gertz, I hope that was sarcasm. :o


That's what a lot of gangster wannabees are saying, now. Not only will 1 get juice, for passing their gang initiation, They'll get a nice, new, shiny gun with it. That's 1 thing some who feel the need to open carry have failed to consider; that the mere fact they open carry invites an altercation from certain criminal elements. Or, perhaps they do realize; which may actually be worse. Open carry may make a few, less violent criminals think twice but it will most definitely embolden those who are violent & hell-bent on proving their masculinity, to attack the open carrier. I carried, both open & concealed, while employed in positions requiring it. I haven't carried or even owned, a gun since I retired. People have the right to practice what's legal. I just don't get the level of fear some seem to have of everyday life. That's just me. Personally, I couldn't enjoy life, that way.


my loose lip isn't going to kill anyone...just be irksome


Crimnal usualy try to catch victims offguard. The suprise attack. Just because you are prepared for trouble doesn't mean you are inviting it. If that were the case then the police are asking for trouble everyday. Going by your thought process if every law abiding citizen and police officer got rid of their guns there would be no more problems. Do you have a spare tire and a jack in your car? Does that mean you go out looking to get flat tires? NOPE! It means when and if you get one you will be ready to handle your business.

The First Amendment means nothing...

...without the Second Amendment.


Lisa asks "After reading all the pro-gun comments and the citing of the laws let me ask you this...why are you carrying a gun? Is it necessary or are you carrying it for intimidation?"
Well Lisa, since you asked, I'll answer it. I carry mine for the same reason that a police officer does. They or I never know who or what they will encounter. Would you guarantee on the life that is most precious to you that a LEO or perhaps a fearless twomiler2 would appear in the nick of time to save you or your loved one of uncertain maiming or death while returning to a parking garage from a Waterside event? Would it be alright with you if someone else would decide to execute you or one of your children after robbing you and that you would just let it happen and if the police didn't appear in time, it will be OK as long as no one violated Title 18:308 of the VA. State Code? Is the life of a LEO worth anymore or any less than your own? One need not ask permission to exercise a right.

It's just not worth it

Its just not worth explaining anymore to you anti-gun/freedom nuts why we carry and why we own guns and that a law is a law. You have your opinion and vehemently assert that your opinion should trump our rights and laws. You request diversity and for others to have an open mind to your thoughts and feelings but scream, shout and do not listen nor attempt to consider any other side contrary to your beliefs.
Congratulations Mr. Moore you have had your successful day in court and I hope that you are able to receive a large sum of money for the embarrassment the NPD caused you. I can't imagine what you must have felt like or went through when the police detained you and let the others continue on. I believe that you were targeted because they, NPD, know who you were from the previous open carry issue and thought they had a chance for retribution with you at waterside.

if looks could kill....

Fact is they can't. If you want to arrest someone for "looking" bad arrest the rodeo clown looking knuckleheads that wear their pants down around their knees. Or the other dufus' that wear those big crooked gaudy baseball caps. But someone with a gun in the holster in plain view? And no to the best of my knowledge there's never been a "gangsta" arrested for doing harm while toting legally a gun.

Enough of the self-righteous piddle.

Talk about living in fear...

you people should be more worried about the drunk/impaired driver you can't see barreling toward you and your familiy rather than the "lawful gun carrying citizen". You should be more worried about the "distracted driver", the "cell phone talking driver", the "trying to light a cigarette driver", the "trying to eat their lunch driver" more than an openly carried firearm. You're more afraid of a weapon in a holster that is pointed down more than the idiot drivers you surround yourself with everyday! Marktwain if you stick your head in the sand you won't be able to see the gun then either! Does it make you feel safer if you can't see it? History 101- the constitution and bill of rights is there to limit the power of the government not the liberties of law abiding citizens.

Whoa folks. Stop the truck and think a bit....

carrying a weapon is a God given and Constitutionally protected RIGHT.
Now, with that being written, whether you appreciate/like my carrying a sidearm is beyond the point. I fully condone your right of free speech, females votings, 18 ear-old cretins voting, ad nauseum...and I for one would appreciate your understanding my 2nd Ammendment rights.
I'm not trying to be next CIALAS commmerical hero... I just want to ensure my safety, as well the safety of my family whilst out in town.
You can flap yer gums, tyoe away, or vote for what ever doofus ya want to ...just respect my right to carry a sidearm...and please don't freak out and panic, will ya? I'm not waving my pistol in yer face am I? It's on my hip and will stay there unless provoked or some jerk decides to rob ya...than ya'll be glad I was there.

Norfolk City Council---

Obviously wasn't concerned when he spoke to them WHILE OPENLY CARRYING HIS FIREARM or they would have had him arrested then. They knew he was within his legal rights. The argument by the City Attorney's Office is paramount to insanity! You just have to be amazed at the stupidity in this! They openly gave him TWO MORE lawsuits that he is guaranteed to win because apparently even the police there don't know the laws well enough to enforce them!! Way to go Norfolk --- your budget deficit is going to get a LOT bigger!

Wow! A Judge that did not legislate from the benchI!

I am stunned. It is so refreshing to see a judge that interprets the law, and does not create the law. I wish we had more like him.


have been accosted by wanna be gangsters, for the juice they'd get for taking on the "man". In Norfolk, years ago, a uniformed officer, wearing his weapon, was robbed in a restaurant, in broad daylight & in full view of dozens. If some are willing to take on a uniformed officer, being fully aware of the wrath with which they will be hunted by other officers; What makes 1 think Jane or John Doe would be fare any better? There have been cases in which an individual open carrying was jacked & then pistol whipped with his own gun. I guarantee that for every wannabee an open carrier may scare off, 3 others will be more than willing to take said carrier on. The person who pulled a gun in the motel lot in SC; If the persons drawn upon had wished, the gun carrier could have been charged with brandishing a weapon, as no one had made a threat toward him, as he freely admits. BTW, People exposing skin or underwear have been issued summonses for indecent exposure.

This is not a Gun Control issue

This story is ultimately about a Hampton man that comes to Norfolk to cash in on his cash cow. This guy is a con-artist.
I hope the Pilot follows up on this guy and lets us know how much he earns each year with this scam. A new criminal trend?

As I'm Sure

most of you have been told, at 1 point in your life, that which 1 fears most, is that which is most likely to happen. Animals smell fear. Humans, as mammals, are animals. Therefore, the scared are more likely to be attacked. To many a "gangsta", nothing shows fear more than open carrying a gun, when 1 isn't employed in a position requiring it. Most cars come equipped with a jack & spare tire. Keeping that in my car isn't the same as open carrying a gun, by any stretch of the imagination. Guns aren't sold with your clothing, so it's not standard equipment. Martial arts, mace, etc, are for self defense. A gun is to kill, when 1 is willing to draw it on a person,(unless 1 loads it with rubber bullets). If 1 feels a legitimate reason to carry, then 1 should get a concealed permit. That way, 1 isn't inviting a wannabee to attack.

no i was not being sarcastic

"Gun Nutz....
Submitted by JerseyGuy on Wed, 02/11/2009 at 3:32 pm.
Gertz, I hope that was sarcasm"

I would like to see ALL gun advocates to open carry their guns every day wherever they go. I want hundred's of thousands of you to parade around the City of Norfolk to display your 2nd Amend. right. Go to work wearing your gun, go to the grocery store and department stores in all surrounding malls, and all restaurants/bars, and when you go to the bank or city hall. Show everyone YOUR RIGHT. Display your weapon with pride and your head held high.

to towmiler2

You sound like you are scared of these wannabee punks but I've seen them in action. They wet their pants when they go up against someone who can fight back.


Here we go again. Twomiler2 is doing the former LEO psycho anaylst logic again. If 1 would read the newspapers more often 1 would learn that more times than not, 1 is usually killed or maimed when is out at night or in some cases broad daylight as your example of a LEO getting robbed.Or perhaps when 1 such as a pizza delivery driver is accosted and perhaps shot and killed for $15.00 and his pizza. Every now and then the pizza guy wins, but not often enough. How about two Mormans going door to door? I say enough. You LEO's only show up to write a report of the victim of a homicide. You are never there when you are needed. You're just there to make sure a citizen can't defend 1's self. You go ahead and walk the streets like superLEO twomiler2. I hope your chest is as bullet proof as your ego. The rest of us are law abiding citizens who wish to protect ourselves within the law as WE see fit rather than of the whims of a 65 year old grandma or a former psycho anaylst LEO who fears nothing and no one.


you're free to live in abject fear, if that's what you wish. More power to you. As you've pointed out, I am experienced in law enforcement & psychology. I understand there may be some former LEOs who disagree with me. That's okay. C'est la vie. Have a good 1.

Con Artist? Silly Observation, sir!

Same reasoning used by person making con artist comment could be used for any other protester through history! Was martin Luther King a con artist? What about Gandhi?

Dan was breaking no laws; he was with a group of people, all of whom were armed, and he was charged with trespassing. Amazingly stupid LEO on that one, or one with a grudge. He managed to arrest the only black armed man among a group of about 40 armed men, the rest of whom were white! I'll write it again:

Amazingly stupid LEO on that one, or one with a grudge.

Citizens who are abiding by the law and not bothering anyone have the right not to be harassed. If they get harassed, then they should sue. That is the only way bureaucrats will learn.

MCSEVA....you have no idea what your talking about.

Yea, he must be a criminal or con-artist....cut from the same cloth as those lowlifes like Rosa Parks and Susan Anthony. *rolls eyes* After all, who puts themselves at risk simply to protect ones rights?
I know Dan and he would have been happy to have been left alone. At the same time he was not going to roll over. He stood up for his rights(and ours). He risked spending up to a year in jail. I have a deep respect for Dan.
You on the other hand have no idea what your talking about. Perhaps, you should look into your own heart and what drives you to speak ill of someone you have so little understanding of.

Alcohol and guns

I just wonder how anybody could determine the guy with the 45. strapped by his side buying alcohol at a bar, is a safe law biding citizen? I guess all the folks with families just have to assume that after a few whiskeys he is going to be ok with his ego tool. Personally I think the guy looks weird! Why take a chance? What kind of person is going to mix alcohol with a gun? He also appears to enjoy all the attention he is getting.
Just curious, what happens if this guy goes off and gets into a gunfight at this restaurant and his bullet kills a innocent bystander? What right does he have to jeopardize the lives of so many just to feed his own ego, or lack of one.

RE: This is not a Gun Control issue


Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable excuse from a group whose primary responsibility it is to enforce the law.

Calling Mr. Moore a con artist is absurd… He did nothing illegal; it is the conduct of the police that is criminal. Especially given that this is not the first time Norfolk police have taken this egregious action against a law abiding citizen. One would expect that a policy would have been prepared and disseminated to all officers in effort to prevent future embarrassment to the city, but NO!!! That would have been far too easy.

RE: Alcohol and guns

“I just wonder how anybody could determine the guy with the 45. strapped by his side buying alcohol at a bar, is a safe law biding citizen?”

Who said he was buying alcohol? Who said he was drinking alcohol? Are you privy to information that the rest of us are not? Perhaps you need to better educate yourself on the Code of Virginia… it would be illegal to illegal to consume alcohol while carry a firearm. And, if he were then it would certainly be a case for an arrest, but that was not the charge.


Twomiler2, if I live in abject fear if I choose to lawfully open carry my firearm, then every law enforcement officer lives in abject fear as well including you when you were a NARC. Circumstances can befall a law abiding citizen in the same manner as a LEO. If all of us live in abject fear, then LEO's should leave their weapons at home while walking the beat right? After all, we can't have LEO's living in abject fear. Right? Sorry twomiler2, I don't buy your argument. I am not a dog, ape or a kangaroo who senses fear from other animals. Give me a break.

Just out of curiosity, can

Just out of curiosity, can any of you actually back up your phobia about people carrying guns and say that you have HONESTLY seen some person openly carrying a firearm saddle up to a bar and start doing shots of this so called whiskey? Did they use a 5 year old as a human sheild too? Open carry is not a new thing; open carry has never been illegal in Virginia so if you say all these shootouts are going to happen then you MUST have seen someone slamming shots of booze while carrying. The guy that got arrested was not drinking, nor was any in his group. Also, if you think a thug is more likely to rob you because you have a firearm then excuse me while I roll around on the floor laughing for about an hour. Oh, they can smell fear alright. Especially when you are standing there wishing you could defend yourself. You have a cell phone though I am sure so you should be ok. Once they see you dial 911 that should send them running.

Oh, and if we are to be

Oh, and if we are to be compared to animals then let's use the rattle of a snake, the colors of an insect, or the fangs of a wolf to compare. All these are signs to another that it is not side to try to attack this animal. A human's open display of strength is no different than the sound of that rattle. It means I don't want to play, leave me be.

Oh, Really?

Okay, Gangstas at your next Gangsta meeting tell your people..”Always carry your piece on busses, in front of banks and in Bars on your hip like Moore did…IT PAYS! And Pays Big! But, only in Norfolk. . You are suggesting something that insane would be okay? If you are so Naïve to believe that sort of thing won’t happen…I got some nice swamp land in Florida I’d like to sell ya! Perhaps the so called Do-Gooder Mr. Moore, will donate all his new found fortune to the NRA… Yes, he’s a Con-Artist and Norfolk has been Duped once again.

Oh really...really?


You do know that this is the SECOND time this has happened to him? After the first time, the amount of "gangstas" I saw walking the streets open carrying was ABSURD....I mean like they were EVERYWHERE!!!

Norfolk wasn’t duped…

They failed in their responsibility to the citizens by failing to take the appropriate steps to prevent this from happening again. Typical… the taxpayers should expect more, if they don’t then they get what they deserve.

Guns are not the problem

The loony gun-control activists fail to notice that law abiding citizens are able to hold a baseball bat, a knife, a bow and arrow, a rock or a gun in their hands at any time of day or night, anywhere, without hurting anybody. But put those same things in the hands of a low-life criminal punk, and you get murder. Quit trying to make the device into something that is inherently evil! It's the person holding it! DUHH! I hope this gentleman costs the City of Norfolk millions of dollars. Maybe then the City officials will get their self-righteous noses out of my law abiding business and adress the crime problem that they pretend is somehow my fault, just because I'm a gun owner.

Stephen Merril - Congrats on a nice win for liberty!

I would like to thank Dan Moore, Judge James Mathews and Attorney Stephen Merrill for standing up for individual liberty. This won't be the first time that Stephen Merrill defended a constitutional amendment.
Merrill, has also in the past filed an Amicus Brief to the US Supreme Court during the infamous Kelo vs. New London eminent domain case. Unfortunately, the court went against our rights on that decision but, Justice Clarence Thomas's dissenting opinion virtually mirrored Merrills submitted brief.

Thanks yet again Steve!


This story is ultimately about a Hampton man that comes to Norfolk to cash in on his cash cow."

umm, not even close. The ONLY question you have to answer for yourself to avail yourself of the truth of the matter is, who broke the law? It certainly wasn't Mr. Moore. Your comments have no basis in fact, period. What you are angry about is your local police force costing you more tax dollars because they apparently don't know the law they are paid to enforce. Maybe you should actually be angry with them.

I think that Norfolk

I think that Norfolk Police(Mr. Moore) and Chesapeake Police(Ryan Fredrick)should get together and attend law enforcment school. JWB must be an officer with one of the two departments!

fear of inanimate objects is irrational

Twomiler2, you said, “If 1 feels a legitimate reason to carry, then 1 should get a concealed permit.” The problem is that even with a concealed carry permit one cannot carry it concealed into a restaurant that serves alcohol. It seems you are ignorant of firearms laws, which, ironically, seems to prove you were the local LEO you claim to have been. Also, if there is no danger out there, then why do LEOs carry? And if there IS a danger requiring uniformed officers to carry, why is their life more important that mine? Jwb, where did you get that he’s drinking alcohol? “what happens if this guy goes off and gets into a gunfight at this restaurant and his bullet kills a innocent bystander?” Name just ONE time this has happened. You can’t because it hasn’t.
I apologize for my earlier post suggesting Mr. Moore was baiting the police by carrying. Poor choice of words. I appreciate his conviction, especially in light of the fact that only thing most people do to further their convictions is post on a comment board.

Dan Moore is fully aware of his duty to society.

Just a bit of history...

"...when the murderers and bloodhounds wish to wage war and murder, it is in truth no insurrection to rise against them and defend oneself. Likewise, I do not want to leave the conscience of the people burdened by the concern and worry that their self-defense might be rebellious...self-defense against the blood-hounds cannot be rebellious." ~ Martin Luther, 1531

Saying that open carry

Saying that open carry incites someone to mess with you is the same bad logic as saying that you caused the burglary of your vehicle because you left your GPS or car radio in sight. That nice house you have just causes burglars to flock to your neighborhood. Blaming anyone for the problem but the person doing the crime is stupid. Wanting to protect yourself from someone who wants to take what you have without having to work for it should not be a problem for any law abiding citizen. Your right under the Constitution should not be a problem for the city. When they are,thank God for the people who are willing to stand up and say that is not right. They are protecting all of our rights.

Next headline will read...



I would like to thank Dan Moore, Judge James Mathews and Attorney Stephen Merrill for standing up for individual liberty. This won't be the first time that Stephen Merrill defended a constitutional amendment.
Merrill, has also in the past filed an Amicus Brief to the US Supreme Court during the infamous Kelo vs. New London eminent domain case. Unfortunately, the court went against our rights on that decision but, Justice Clarence Thomas's dissenting opinion virtually mirrored Merrills submitted brief.

It's Not

illogical to base 1's opinion on years of experience & working cases involving guns. Burglary isn't about getting juice, as a public jacking is. Keith, you're much to bright to compare a uniformed police officer, who's required to open carry on the street as part of his job, & is trained, to react to crime at a moment's notice, with "Joe or Jane Schmoe", who's carrying just because they want to carry. I never open carried a gun, while in plainclothes narcotics, the idea being as discreet as possible. I never carried a gun at all, while undercover, in narcotics, the idea being I was to appear as whatever the dealers expected, other than a narc. Many vets, at that time, became police officers, firefighters, postal workers & such due to the edge vets got, for job consideration, & the hours were such that 1 could use his GI Bill benefits to return to college, as well as get OJT from the VA. Have a good 1.

Rushing, half asleep,

I left an o out of phrase too bright.

It's never the gun you have to worry about . . .

It's never the gun you have to worry about but the person carrying it. I've walked out of places that had people who had been drinking too much that were exercising their 'right to open carry.' One place I left had a shoot out at it later between such customers. People carrying firearms definitely don't make me feel any safer. You'd think this was the wild west or something . . .

when / where

Mark, I have to doubt the veracity of your claim. When and where did this alleged shootout occur? I say I doubt it because that type of thing would be manna from Heaven for the Brady people and their ilk and they would have publicized the heck out of it.

In any even, is these people were carrying firearms and were drinking then they were acting illegally. In other words, there are ALREADY laws prohibiting the behavior you don't like.

sad insecurities

I never knew there were so many insecure men that feel they have to carry a gun to feel noticed, important, or macho. It's very sad! I remember my brother when he was 4 playing cowboys and indians. He loved that gun and holster, but he grew up and didn't need his toys any longer. Gorwing up isn't difficult, and comes with many benefits......some of you might want to give it a try.
I read the same old comments from the same old people about guns and their rights. What they never want to talk about is that "right" comes with responsibilities, and parading around town with a gun on your hip is irresponsible, and so very childish regardless of "right".
I stated before I would like to see EVERY gun owner to strap them own and live with them day in and day out regardless of where they go in their daily travels. Maybe then the general public will see for themselves how juvenile these "little boys" look.


That's because it's never happened. Just like all the anti-firearm people, just make things up to try and get your point across.


Well, twomiler you continue to assume that anyone who opines on this blog pertaining to this subject, was never a LEO, or never been in the army or seen combat. You also appear to think it is OK for for Joe or Jane Schmoe to be executed in a parking garage if they were to encounter an armed person fully intending to kill them. After all, they haven't had the LEO training or been a NARC before, so therefore it's tough cheese and they should just cooperate and die. It's your choice to carry or not to carry, whether LEO or former LEO. What suits you doesn't necessarily suit me or someone else. Your psychological assessment isn't cutting it with me either. We will NEVER agree on this issue. Not even close. It is my sincere wish that Chet Szymecki and Dan Moore become filthy rich (courtesy of the city of Norfolk) and that the funds come out of the police budget. Mayor Fraim, Bernard Pishko, and Andrew Fox have tainted the character of these men simply for LAWFULLY exercising their rights. The NPD, and the city acted with malfeasance and total disregard for the law. Now it is time to turn the tables on these three stooges. Stay safe twomiler2 and wear your vest when you go out.

Drinking and bearing arms.

There seems to be some confusion about the laws on carrying arms and drinking.

Currently, it is unlawful to carry a concealed weapon into a restaurant that serves alcohol, unless you are a policeman or Commonwealth's Attorney, in which case you can carry concealed and drink alcohol.

It is legal to OPEN carry in a restaurant and to drink so long as you are not legally intoxicated.(Though I make it a practice to not drink at all when carrying.)

That would not change with the proposed bill before the GA except persons with concealed carry permits would be allowed to conceal carry in restaurants BUT NOT drink while doing so.

stand corrected

Dr. Tabor, I stand corrected. I didn't realize it was legal to consume alcohol and carry a weapon, concealed or otherwise, because it's such a bad idea to do so. On the occasions I've carried overseas and had access to alcohol I refrained. Just seems prudent.

I agree with the bill before the GA (that Kane will no doubt veto). I have to laugh a little bit (or would if it weren't so sad) that people are against the very measure that would relieve them of their irrational fear of the sight of a firearm. I also can't wrap my brain around the idea that they feel safe because they believe nobody could possibly be carrying a weapon because it's against the law to do so. Somehow you or me legally carrying a concealed weapon is a bigger threat than a criminal illegally carrying. Chances are excellent that these same people who fear guns walk past people carrying concealed all the time - legally or otherwise.


I was just wondering where this place was that had this shoot out. Was it ever found out that these people were legal gun owners? Or were the just a bunch of thugs with a rap sheet so long that they lost their right to own a gun long ago? Point is, I don't consider a typical thug with a criminal record having any right to exercise their second amendment right because they lost that when they chose the life of crime. That being said do you think THEY are going to put down their arms in order to comply with the fact that it is illegal for them to have them at all?

The Right to What?

Carrying a gun into a bar is somewhat akin to taking a lighted match into a powder magazine. Sure, you have the right to see; but....

bad analogy, captnick

Carrying an UNlit match into a powder magazine is more like carrying a holstered weapon. The unlit match is no danger to anybody unless you light it. Similarly, a holstered weapon is no danger to anybody unless the guy carrying it unholsters and fires it.

The thing is that gun rights advocates primarily want to be able to carry their concealed weapons into restaurants that serve alcohol. The bill before the GA would prohibit people so carrying to consume alcohol. There's no reason why a person with a CCW permit should have to lock his weapon in his car - or carry it openly as the law now requires - just because the restaurant where he wants to eat serves alcohol. The visions of men swaggering into bars with guns on their hips are pure fantasy. Permitting CCW in restaurants would actually reduce public anxiety because the public wouldn't even know who's carrying. They don't now, but at least if CCW were legal some of them would be trained and licensed. As opposed to now.

No one is twisting your arm

To stay at at an establishment, if you see a person with a .45 holstered to their hip.

My recommendation is that if you have a complaint, than the Pilot Online is where you should go, Entertainment Section, Restaurant Guide, there you can post a review about the establishment being "gun friendly".

I am sure the editors here would love to have your comments.

try carying in NYC

and see how far you get.

I don't mind being called a

I don't mind being called a "little boy" or any of the other little jabs that Gertz like to throw at people like me who are just trying to exercise our rights in this free country of ours. I just pretend she is calling me a dirty negro because I just drank out of the water fountain that was meant for only her to use. I can see her calling someone a filthy homo just because they want to serve openly in the military. That chick that raised such a fuss about sitting in the back of the bus while Gertz gets to sit up front, who does that shick think she is? She makes Gertz uncomfortable so she better get with the program and forget about her rights! To the back of the bus you trouble making negro!

Gertz's little boys

Well Gertz, I never knew there were so many insecure 65 year old grandmas that feel that everyone who open carries or carries concealed is out to repeat Columbine. We also have read the same old comments from the same old grandmas that assume that exercising a right is irresponsible and childish. Talk about who is being juvenile. It boils down to what rights you approve of. Well, tough cheese Gertz. You lose. All the previous arrests have done is make the city of Norfolk and their police department look like a bunch of idiots and cost the taxpayers of Norfolk (hopefully you are one of them) for their arrogance as well as ignorance of the law. It has also strenthened the cause in the legislature as well to put a stop to thisnonsense. Police and the public have nothing to fear from armed law abiding citizens. The public have more to fear from 65 year old liberal grandmas.

Man The "Antis are amazing in their Un-logic..

Let's take this post in several smaller doses...
"Seems to me that if you would just wear it concealed legally then the police and regular citizens would not have to put up with your ignorance."
1st, you cannot carry concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol. period. OC is the only option. Our hope is that thru more exposure people will stop being afraid of a piece of metal. It is better to fear a bad guy and be ready to take action. Is it ignorant to vote? Is equality of the races "ignorant"? Which other basic human rights do you advocate removing from your fellow man because they make you uncomfortable?

"...laziness, go get your concealed permit."
A CC permit is the goverment's way of imposing a fee on gun owners who wish to exercise their right.

Submitted by Mark Twain II"Secondly, how are police suppose to know that you are legal to have the firearm...?"
Because unless you are doing something else that is illegal, you ARE legal. How do the police know you aren't carrying a bomb inside your grocery bag when you are shopping? Should they stop everyone, all the time? This isn't nazi Germany and WE The People do not have to show ID at the whim of the police.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Please note: Threaded comments work best if you view the oldest comments first.

Daily Deal |  | Promote your business