The Virginian-Pilot
©
CHESAPEAKE
Standing before the City Council in May, New Temple Grove Ministries Pastor John McDonald asked God to bless the meeting and all that was to happen that Tuesday night. "We ask all of this in Jesus' name," McDonald ended.
That invocation and others that referenced Jesus Christ this year are at the heart of a debate over whether the Chesapeake council's opening prayers violate the separation of church and state.
First, a Wisconsin group billing itself as North America's largest association of atheists wrote a letter to the city saying the prayers were illegal. Then on Tuesday, an advocacy group called The Family Foundation of Virginia defended Chesapeake. On Wednesday, the ACLU of Virginia blasted the Family Foundation's view and argued that the prayers were unconstitutional.
All of the groups say they are correct.
The city says it believes the prayers are fine.
The issue surfaced in June, after a Chesapeake couple complained that their school-age son was required to watch City Council meetings for a social studies project and was subject to Christian-based prayers. An attorney for the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which says it has nearly 14,000 members nationwide, watched a few council meetings on the city's Web site, then fired off a letter asking Chesapeake Mayor Alan Krasnoff to stop the prayers that reference Jesus Christ.
The city responded in early July, denying that the prayers were illegal. Chesapeake City Council meetings have opened with invocations for more than 46 years, City Attorney Ron Hallman wrote. The city keeps a running list of all religious organizations in Chesapeake and a list of who has been invited to give the invocation. The city has invited a Muslim leader, and went outside the city to find a leader in the Jewish community because there are no synagogues in Chesapeake.
Krasnoff, who added a prayer at the end of meetings when he began his term, declined to comment on the issue last month and did not return a call to his cell phone Wednesday.
On Tuesday, the Family Foundation offered its help to Chesapeake. The group previously lobbied to have an instruction on the benefits of marriage incorporated into the family life curriculum taught in Virginia schools.
The American Civil Liberties Union decided to join in after it saw the Family Foundation's position.
"The court precedents on this issue are recent and crystal-clear, so I must admit that we are rather mystified by the advice being offered to Chesapeake City Council by... the Family Foundation," said Kent Willis, executive director of the ACLU of Virginia.
"We're thrilled the ACLU has weighed in," said Victoria Cobb, president of The Family Foundation of Virginia. "They're wrong so often that it actually helps us make our case."
Mike Saewitz, (757) 222-5207, mike.saewitz@pilotonline.com
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Actually, Lando, I think that you will find
that the last century probably wins the slaughter contest, and it was by and large mostly secular.
Stalin might be the champ at somewhere between 20-30 million depending upon counting methods.
Hitler is generally credited with about 11 million.
The Ottoman Empire in Turkey may get the bronze for 1-1.5 million Armenians.
Some runner ups should include Serbia and Rwanda.
You could make a case for religious persecution in the Holocaust and Serbia, but it was more about creating scapegoats to attain power.
So the Crusades, though brutal, pales in comparison. I think if you add up all the religious atrocities, they just don't make the grade, but probably because WW II had the means to eliminate so many so efficiently.
That being said, the problem with religion is often in the details. All cultures have belief in higher power(s), they just can't seem to agree about how to worship. And that becomes fodder for power struggles among leaders of various sects.
When in Rome................
Our great nation was founded on Christianity. Having an open-door policy on immigration does not change that fact. If you don't like it, go back to where you or your ancestors came from. The founding Christians and their descendants have been tolerant of the others and have welcomed you and yours. Keep your rightful place.
Thank God for the Christian leadership.
Lets not forget, that more
Lets not forget, that more people have been murdered through genocide in the name of christianity. You've heard of the crusades right??
Seriously???
Perhaps you should keep your holier then thou nonsense out of the argument. Some of the founders were in fact christian, but a good number are atheist. Do a little research. Also, you know that part in the where it says FREEDOM OF RELIGION, it doesnt mean 'you must praise the sky wizard or die. It means one can worship who or what they want, or nothing if they so choose.
I find it very unacceptable that it is ok to shove god, allah, the tora, or which ever religion in someones face, but when an 'atheist' says no thanks, they get crucified.
Did you know that atheism is a growing trend in the USA? People are tired of being brainwashed by sky wizard cults and child molesters hiding behind a book, not to mention that the majority of churches are for profit organizations.
The constitution was written to say separation of church and state. Sadly, this is not happening.
Just wow
Atheism on the rise in the US? Hmmm, according to the data here http://www.thearda.com/internationalData/countries/Country_234_2.asp
Atheists make up .4% of the population of the US
Agnostics make up 11.2%
and Christians make up 82.3% of the US population.
"Keep your rightful place"?
Enlighten us. Do you mean that non-Christians need to walk two paces behind Christians?
I am afraid you misunderstood a bit of history. This country was founded by revolutionaries who constructed a government based on principles from the Enlightenment. The main principle was that there are certain individual rights that supercede the power of the state.
That most of the founders were adherents to some form of Christianity was to be expected since they came from a country with an official state religion based on that set of beliefs.
Saudi Arabia may have been founded on Islam, but we were not founded on Christianity. The only mention of religion at all is in the 1st amendment and that just guarantees you right to worship, or not, as you please and the state will not endorse or establish an official church.
We are a secular country with roots in Western traditions, which include, but are not exclusively, Judeo-Christian principles.
Those who prefer a theocracy need to look elsewhere.
Here's something you should read Len
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html
very nice history there.
Prayer at City Council
The problem is not that the city should invite leaders from all faiths, the problem is that the prayers must be non-secatarian. The City of Chesapeake has "Council Rules of Order" posted on their web site which lays out the format of the city council meeting. Section 18 clearly states that the invocation be non-sectarian. The Freedom From Religion Foundation is not asking that council stop invocations, council should just follow their own rules and ensure that the invocation be non-sectarian. They can invite any religious leader they want as long as that leader does not mention a particular deity. Frankly, I am not sure how praying to sky spirits helps with decisions on sewage, zoning, or road inprovements anyway. The ending prayer should be dropped completely. That is getting a little ridiculous. A few more prayers added and the meeting will be called a service.
Awaiting staff approval.
Once again another person is being censored by those who cry freedom of speecch loudest.
No insult or derogatory remark towards anyone have I made. "My opinion" just like many other people's opinion which is our right in a "free" society is why I am being censored.
My Opinion is ..............Hypocrites!
Shoe on other foot. Seperation of church and state.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/20/national/main612805.shtml
Be careful when you ignore what our forefathers intended to protect you.
Do not let your isolation from the rest of the world make you ignorant of what our forefathers were trying to avoid.
When the shoe is on the other foot it will be too late and your ignorance of the true meaning of seperation of church and state will have turned against you. The Middle east should be a good example of what many of you will create with your ignorance.